August 5, 2022
Friday 5 August 2022
Interview with Patricia Karvelas
Subjects: TikTok, Taiwan
PATRICIA KARVELAS: As concern grows about data harvesting by social media companies, federal MPs and staffers have been cautioned to use two mobile phones to protect sensitive data. Intelligence agency, the Australian Signals Directorate, has reportedly briefed some but not all federal MPs about the threat posed by apps that excessively access user’s location, mapping, and contacts information. The MPs were told not to use social media on the same device they use for government information or private messaging. Opposition Senator James Paterson is The Shadow Minister for Cybersecurity and Countering Foreign Interference and our guest this morning. Senator, welcome to the program.
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Good morning Patricia.
KARVELAS: Have you received such a briefing?
SENATOR PATERSON: No, I wasn't privy to the briefing that has apparently taken place quite recently. But it is consistent with warnings that I've previously received in the previous parliament and from experts in the cybersecurity sector, that there are some social media apps in particular, which are very high risk as a result of where their parent company is based. And the fact that they're subject to, in the case of TikTok for example, China's national security legislation.
KARVELAS: Why would only some MPs and staffers be singled out?
SENATOR PATERSON: That's a good question, Patricia. And it's a question you'd have to ask the government. I understand it was government MPs who were - received this briefing, and I'm not sure what the context of the briefing was. But to my knowledge, there's not a member of the opposition that received that briefing.
KARVELAS: That's interesting. So why should federal MPs and staff be wary of using social media on the same device they use for parliamentary business?
SENATOR PATERSON: Well, the first thing to say is that all social media apps pose a form of risk. They are in the business of collecting information on us and then seeking to monetise it. But there are some social media apps which pose a greater risk for example, TikTok and WeChat, which are owned by Chinese parent companies, ByteDance and Tencent. Because they're headquartered in China, they're subject to China's national security legislation, including its 2017 national intelligence law. And that law requires all companies and individuals to secretly cooperate with Chinese intelligence agencies if requested. And so it could be that those employees or companies are directed by Chinese intelligence agencies to provide material information on Australian or other users around the world. And TikTok has recently admitted contrary to their previous assurances that our data is in fact not safe just because it's being stored in, for example, Singapore or the United States, because we now know, thanks to a leak to BuzzFeed in June, that it has been accessed and has been accessible for some time in mainland China.
KARVELAS: Are you aware of any incidents where the data harvesting of any federal MP or staffer has occurred?
SENATOR PATERSON: No, I'm not. I haven't been briefed on any incident, specific incident occurring. But it is a risk which we need to be aware of.
KARVELAS: Should politicians have TikTok accounts at all? Or do you want them off the app?
SENATOR PATERSON: I don't have a TikTok account. But it is up to the individual MPs to decide whether or not they want to. It's very important if they do so though, that they take steps to mitigate those risks, for example, by having a second device which they operate on. The problem with that advice though Patricia is it's clearly not practical advice for the 7 million Australians who also use that app. And so, I think much more broader action is required. And I've written to the Minister for Cybersecurity Claire O'Neill last month, encouraging her to investigate all the possible regulatory actions that could protect those 7 million users privacy and their cybersecurity.
KARVELAS: The apps weren't named in this briefing, but earlier this week, New Zealand MPs were told not to use TikTok which is owned by the Chinese company ByteDance, is that a warning for TikTok users particularly and why?
SENATOR PATERSON: Because as I said before, Patricia they are subject to China's national security legislation. And we know that data of TikTok users in the United States, Australia and elsewhere has been accessed in mainland China. And that puts it within the reach of Chinese government intelligence agencies. China’s obviously a very complex relationship. They have been seeking to economically coerce Australia. Intelligence agencies have previously said they are responsible for record levels of foreign interference, espionage and cyber-attacks on Australia. And so it does pose a particularly acute concern, even though there are risks with all social media apps.
KARVELAS: I want to move on to some other issues this morning with you, turning to what we've seen unfold in Taiwan, Beijing has ramped up live fire drills around Taiwan in the wake of the US Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s visit to the contested island. Do you support the trip?
SENATOR PATERSON: Well, the most important thing to say Patricia, is that it is a grossly disproportionate response to fire ballistic missiles into the territorial waters of your neighbours in response to a congressional delegation. It is entirely routine for members of the US Congress, including the Speaker of the House to visit Taiwan, previous Speakers of the House have done so. In fact, multiple times per year congressional delegations visit Taiwan. There was one that came through Australia just before our federal election on its way to Taiwan, including very senior members of the US Senate. I myself have visited Taiwan on a delegation and that's perfectly consistent with both Australia and the United States bipartisan support for a One China policy where unofficial exchanges between legislatures regularly take place.
KARVELAS: The Labor government's response to China ramping up pressure has been to call on all sides to act with restraint. The Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles told our listeners just yesterday the government would take a calm and measured response. What do you make of the response that we've heard?
SENATOR PATERSON: I would encourage the government to consider, as we have done in the past, calling on China to exercise restraint, and to avoid actions which could lead to miscalculation or accidents. The military drills that are taking place around Taiwan today, are highly risky, and could very easily unintentionally cause harm. And China really needs to step back from those actions, which is in response to an entirely routine visit of a member of the US Congress.
KARVELAS: Is that the response you think that they've given though? You say you would urge them? Is that what they've given?
SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I can only note Patricia is that the G7 Foreign Ministers put out a strong statement in recent days, where they urged China to step back from this escalatory behaviour, noting the risk of miscalculation.
KARVELAS: So are you calling on our government to do the same as the G7 leaders?
SENATOR PATERSON: Well, in the past, previous federal governments have been clear when they've thought that there was destabilising behaviour, they've called it out or they’ve made representations directly to the Chinese government, if they believe that was necessary. I'm sure our government is considering a full range of options.
KARVELAS: And at this stage, are you underwhelmed by the response? Do you think it needs to be stronger?
SENATOR PATERSON: I'm going to be cautious about being a public commentator on the response of the Australian Government. I'm sure they carefully weighing up all the options. All I'm noting is that in the past when there has been destabilising behaviour, we haven't hesitated to call it out.
KARVELAS: You're saying past governments, what are you referring to?
SENATOR PATERSON: Well when we were previously in government, Foreign Minister Marise Payne would often call out destabilising behaviour, she would often do so in joint statements with other like minded countries, for example, G7 foreign ministers or other groupings.
KARVELAS: And do you think Penny Wong's response, I mean she's asked for de-escalation isn't that the same thing?
SENATOR PATERSON: That's very welcome. And I congratulate the Minister for that.
KARVELAS: In the face of a more aggressive China, and what we've seen play out around this visit, and Taiwan, you mentioned, you've been to Taiwan, do you think it's important for Australian politicians, including yourself, to make those visits would you support, for instance, Peter Dutton going to Taiwan?
SENATOR PATERSON: Well it’s consistent with our one China policy for members of our parliament who are not members of the executive to visit Taiwan for unofficial exchanges, we maintain those close trade and unofficial links between Australia and Taiwan. And that is a really important part of ensuring that, like minded groupings in the region are able to coordinate on issues of economic, national security, environmental and other concerns. And so I'm not going to provide public advice for Peter Dutton about his travel plans, except to note that in the past, it's been common for backbenchers to travel to Taiwan.
KARVELAS: On the one China policy, it's a sort of policy of ambiguity, is there – is it reaching a tipping point, do you think that needs to change?
SENATOR PATERSON: Both United States and Australia have maintained a policy of strategic ambiguity towards the status of Taiwan, and what that is designed to do is to maintain the status quo, and to ensure that there are no changes to the status quo that don't occur through peaceful means. We've been very clear for a long period of time on both sides of politics that if they were to be changing the status quo it would have to occur peacefully. And my view is that the self determination of the Taiwanese people should be at the heart of that question. 23 million people who have a proud liberal democracy must be at the heart of whatever their own future is. And so we don't support a unilateral declaration of independence from Taiwan, but we also don’t support the use of force to change the status of Taiwan.
KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining us.
SENATOR PATERSON: Thanks, Patricia.
KARVELAS: And that is Liberal Senator James Paterson. He's also the shadow spokesperson for cyber security and countering foreign interference.You're listening to ABC RN Breakfast. It's seventeen minutes past eight.
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