October 25, 2022
PETER STEFANOVIC: On that note, let's bring in the Shadow Cyber Security Minister James Paterson. James, good to see you. So, fits a theme, doesn't it? Does any of that surprise you?
JAMES PATERSON: Sadly, Peter, no it doesn't. It's certainly consistent with the warnings that we've received from our intelligence chiefs that espionage and foreign interference and cyber attacks in Australia are at unprecedented record highs in our history. And these charges in the United States are significant for a number of reasons.
Firstly, there was three separate cases that the US Justice Department released. There were two people arrested and 13 people charged. One of those related to Huawei and it is interesting because it demonstrates the close connection between the Chinese state and the so-called private company of Huawei and the way in which Ministry of State Security intelligence officers operating overseas seek to aid the commercial interests of Huawei as a company. Not many people in Australia argue this anymore, but there still are a few people who suggest that Huawei is just a
private company unconnected to the Chinese Communist Party. What these indictments further reveal is how intimately linked those two things are.
STEFANOVIC: Yeah, I mean, there's an interesting situation going on. I mean, tension certainly ratcheting up when it comes to the US and China at the moment. There's this other situation where the US Commerce Department had stopped or effectively banned Chinese customers from purchasing or buying microchips. In exchange, it seems that Xi Jinping is now going to stop the export of resources, critical minerals to the US. So electric cars, you know, things of that nature can't be built – which obviously might benefit Australian companies by the way – but where is all of this heading?
PATERSON: Well, Peter, I actually think that story about the Biden administration's sanctions on chip manufacturers and American citizens working in the Chinese chip industry has been underreported in Australia. It's a hugely significant move from the Biden administration and one which will have a profound effect on the Chinese country's ability to manufacture high end chips. It has been an ambition of China for many years to try and replicate what exists in Taiwan and South Korea and Japan and the United States and a few other places in the world of high-end chip manufacturing. They've been unable to do so, but they are getting closer. And this is about a decision from the United States government to prevent them from being able to do so. It's in response to malign behaviour by China for many years in relation to intellectual property theft and other means of espionage and trying to steal the secrets of this industry from the rest of the world. And what it really indicates is whether we like it or not in Australia, policies in both China and the United States are heading towards a full tech decoupling. We are going to have a bifurcated tech world and Australia needs to adjust to the reality of that and work out how to navigate that world because it's a very different world from the one we've had in the past 30 years.
STEFANOVIC: Okay. Yeah. It's a really interesting story, that one. I will do more on that too. Meanwhile, James, China has criticised the upgraded security pact between Australia and Japan. It says it should not start a new Cold War group. Not surprising, but are they nervous, James?
PATERSON: I think this is a very telling intervention from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in China, who also said that this move, in the People's Daily, was going to disrupt the efforts by the Albanese government here in Australia to warm ties between China and Australia. I think if it is true that a bilateral agreement between Australia and Japan has an impact on our relations with China, then that says
something very disturbing about the way in which the Chinese government thinks that it can dictate to Australia our international relationships and it does show how challenging it is going to be to restore normal relations between our two countries.
I certainly wish the Albanese government every success in stabilising the relationship, but those voices in our public debate that say that this is going to be an easy task or a task that can be achieved without any sacrifices to Australia's sovereignty I think are being demonstrated to be dangerously naive. The Chinese government is becoming increasingly assertive and it will continue to try to dictate to Australia our domestic public policy settings and our international relations. And the only thing the Australian government can do in the face of that pressure is to very determinedly stick to what is our national interest. And I think the agreement with Japan was an outstanding agreement. It builds on an agreement signed by John Howard many years ago. It's been in negotiation for a number of years and of course builds on the previous government's success of upgrading the relationship in a defence setting and also the Quad. So, it's very welcome.
STEFANOVIC: Yeah. Worthy partners, that's for sure, getting closer and closer, good to see Australia and Japan. Meanwhile back to the US, James. TikTok, planned to monitor the locations of its users. It has forced you to write to the Prime Minister here about that. Why?
PATERSON: I don't write to the Prime Minister lightly, but I think this is a very serious national security issue. It is just the latest of very many revelations about TikTok and its operations, about the way in which it has been accessing the data of Australians and Americans in mainland China contrary to the assurances the company had previously given to our governments that the data of our citizens was safe. This shows an intent to track the individual locations of US users who are of interest to the company. That is a deeply disturbing thing. We have every reason to believe that they have the capability as well as potentially the intent to do so here in Australia.
I first wrote to the Home Affairs Minister and Cyber Security Minister Clare O'Neil about this matter in July. I've not yet received a reply from the Minister, but she did indicate publicly in September that she'd sought advice from the Department of Home Affairs, which she's expecting next year, about how to deal with the wider problem of social media apps that are based in authoritarian countries like China. I think that's too slow. I think that's too long to wait. I think we need to act. And what I've asked the Prime Minister to do is urgently bring forward any legislative reform necessary to protect Australian users. There are 7 million Australians who use TikTok and most of them are young people and right now their data and their privacy is dangerously exposed to an authoritarian government.
STEFANOVIC: Okay, James Paterson, we will leave it there. Appreciate your time though this morning. We will talk to you again soon.
ENDS
