February 22, 2023
PETER STEFANOVIC: Joining us now for his reaction is Liberal Senator James Paterson. James, good to see you. So, you are well aware of the issues that we face, more so than anyone, really. But how sobering was Mike Burgess' analysis last night?
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Peter. Well, Mike's central message was we need to take security seriously. And he shared with the Australian people that espionage and foreign interference is now our principal security concern, that it has supplanted terrorism. And that is it at the highest levels we have ever dealt with, even at the height of the Cold War. ASIO is busier than it has ever been. And he described what he called hand-to-hand combat that they are engaged in every day with spies and others who seek to undermine our democracy.
I thought his comment that he had come under pressure from business figures, those in universities and even in the government to back down on taking up the fight against these spies was an enormously significant disclosure. Let's be really direct and honest here. No one is saying to him, go soft on Russian spies. No one is saying to him, go soft on North Korean spies. No one is saying to him, go soft on Iranian spies. Clearly, what these people would have been saying is go soft on spies from China because they're worried about the bilateral relationship and particularly the economic and trade relationship. That is utterly unacceptable. Mike Burgess is right to call it out, to stand up to it. Our democracy and our
sovereignty is never for sale. It is not negotiable. And we should never tolerate a little bit of foreign interference and a little bit of spying from China in the aim of restoring a bilateral relationship.
STEFANOVIC: So that's what you think that's coming from. I mean, Mike Burgess wouldn't specifically name countries, but do you think the pressure is coming from the current government and its politicians?
PATERSON: I'm not suggesting it's coming from Ministers. I'd be extremely disappointed and concerned if it was. I'm suggesting there have been groups in our community for a long time who have sought to undermine the bipartisan consensus of the policy changes that have been made over the last decade to protect and secure our democracy. That included the introduction of the Foreign Influence Transparency Scheme, the Espionage and Foreign interference scheme, the Foreign Arrangements Act, a whole range of things that were designed to make sure Australia is strong and robust against foreign interference. We know there are people in the community who don't buy into that, who don't agree with that. And while they're entitled to their views, like Mike Burgess, I think that should be ignored.
STEFANOVIC: Now he referred to a hive of spies that have been taken down, James, that they had been here for years, they had been recruiting, they were stealing sensitive information. So, you identified some countries before that Mike Burgess didn't. You know, for our audience, is this where you suspect the spies have come from? From China, from Russia, from Iran, from North Korea?
PATERSON: I haven't been briefed on the source of that particular intrusion. But those countries that I named are always at the top of the list when it comes to foreign interference and espionage. Certainly, lots of countries in the world engage in foreign interference and espionage, but it is those authoritarian states, particularly in our region, that take a very strong interest in not only our democracy but our defence and intelligence secrets that engage in those sort of activities.
STEFANOVIC: When I and many others think of spies, you know, we go back to the Cold War days. I put this to John Blaxland actually, last hour. You know, it's fedoras, overcoats, swapping suitcases. But it's a different game now, isn't it? So how is sensitive information stolen and how do they recruit?
PATERSON: Well, one of the other case studies in Mike Burgess's speech I thought was very illustrative. He talked about a "lackey", an Australian born lackey, who facilitated junkets for journalists overseas. And then on those junkets, those journalists would be introduced to local officials who are, in fact, spies, who would then cultivate them and seek information from them. Now, he had talked about how ASIO has disrupted that particular example. But it's a very common feature of some governments trying to win favour and curry favour and recruit sources and recruit assets. And everyone who is subject to those sort of inducements needs to be aware of it. And that's part of the reason why Mike Burgess has led the way in calling this out. And I think his annual threat assessment is very important in that regard.
Whether you're a journalist, a politician, a bureaucrat or anyone else who has access to sensitive information, you need to be on guard for those sort of soft attempts to recruit and cultivate you and to get you to be a source for a foreign intelligence agency.
STEFANOVIC: Right. Still on national security, James. The Prime Minister is going to be delivering a speech at the National Press Club later on today. What do you hope to hear from him today?
PATERSON: Well, the reported comments the Prime Minister will make about AUKUS are certainly welcome. I want this government to take AUKUS incredibly seriously. It's the signature achievement, in my view, of the previous government, and we hope it to be continued in every shape and every form under this new government. And in fact, I hope they can build upon it, accelerate it, and deliver it even faster, because the strategic environment that we're operating in is continuing to deteriorate and deteriorate incredibly fast. And we need as much capability as soon as we can so that we can help prevent conflicts by deterring it. The best thing that we can do to prevent conflict, whether it's in the Taiwan Strait or the South or East China Seas or anywhere else in our region, is to be a credible, strong power in support of and in close consultation with our allies like the United States, Japan and others. So, I'll be looking forward to the Prime Minister's speech today, and I hope the government is really delivering on the Defence Strategic Review by Stephen Smith and Sir Angus Houston.
STEFANOVIC: James Paterson, good to chat as always. We'll talk to you soon.
ENDS
