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October 18, 2023
TRANSCRIPT
Wednesday 18 October 2023
Interview with Peter Stefanovic, First Edition
Subjects: Israel-Hamas conflict, President Biden’s visit to Israel, Australian government evacuation flights
PETER STEFANOVIC: Well, let's go to Canberra now and joining us live is the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, James Paterson. James, good to see you. Thanks for your time this morning. Let's start off with that hospital strike in Gaza. Always very difficult to work out who's responsible for it because different sides blame the other side. This always happens anyway. But what were your thoughts, your initial response to that attack this morning?
SENATOR PATERSON: Good morning. Well, obviously, whoever is responsible, it's an utterly catastrophic and tragic loss of human life and the last thing that anyone would want to see. You're right, it's disputed at this stage whether or not this was an Israeli airstrike, which missed a target or whether or not it was a Palestinian Islamic Jihad or Hamas rocket which misfired and landed in Gaza. If it was the latter, that would not be uncommon. In previous conflicts up to 40% of the rockets fired out of Gaza by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad in fact land in Gaza and often caused collateral damage for civilians. Whoever is directly responsible, the party who is ultimately responsible, of course, is Hamas because this conflict is occurring because more than a week ago they launched the worst attack on Israel in decades, which caused the greatest loss of Jewish life on a single day since the Holocaust. And it was inevitable that Israel would respond. So ultimately, Hamas bears the moral responsibility for every life that is lost on both sides because they launched this attack knowing this would happen again.
STEFANOVIC: And it's also true and, you know, this has been found out by the United Nations that munitions weapons are often stored in hospitals, they're stored in schools, they're stored in mosques. Missile launch sites are often next to or very close to hospitals, schools, built up residential areas. And there are command centres in the main al-Shifa hospital. I've been there and I've seen that myself. So, I mean, that increases the risk of a misfire when Israel says that a missile could have gone past that hospital and that could have been an accident.
PATERSON: That's exactly right, Pete. Israel uses the IDF to defend its citizens, but Hamas uses its citizens to defend its fighters. And they deliberately locate their munitions and their fighters and their headquarters in civilian areas, in schools, in hospitals, in mosques, for two reasons. One, they know that it will be harder for the IDF to target them, and the IDF will be reluctant to target them because of the casualties of civilians. But two, because they actually pursue a higher civilian death toll on the Palestinian side as an objective in order to use as a propaganda weapon against Israel in international public debates. It is absolutely an objective of Hamas to make sure there are lots of Palestinian casualties. So that is why they bear that ultimate moral responsibility, and that is why Israel can no longer tolerate the ongoing existence of Hamas on its border. It is an existential threat to the safety of Israel. And I absolutely understand why Israel is now seeking to remove that threat.
STEFANOVIC: We're just noticing the motorcade, the US President Joe Biden. That's happening now, James Joe Biden about to head to Tel Aviv. He's there for a few days, he's got meetings with a few leaders, notably of Egypt and of Jordan as well as Israel. So the main players in the region, he wouldn't be going there, would he, unless he was able to secure something. What do you expect that would likely be?
PATERSON: Well it's a hugely significant decision for a sitting US president to visit effectively a war zone. It would be an enormous undertaking operationally to secure his safety for that trip. And you're right, he would only do so if it's very important. The United States will have a couple of objectives. First and foremost, they'll be very concerned about the US citizens who have been taken hostage into Gaza and they will be seeking their safe release. Secondly, they'll be seeking and avoiding this becoming a wider regional conflict. The last thing that anyone needs, and the last thing the United States wants to see, is Hezbollah entering this conflict in a meaningful way from the north. There have been some exchanges of fire between Israel and Hezbollah, but they have not entered the conflict in a meaningful way, or fighters based in Syria entering into conflict, let alone Iran or other regional players trying to weigh in. If that were to happen, it would be utterly catastrophic, and that's why the US is signalling so strongly that they would respond. They've moved two carrier strike groups into the region and now the President himself is visiting. Yesterday, the central commander of US Centcom was in the region as well to meet with Israelis and they're very closely liaising with Israel on the response to make sure that it can be effective.
STEFANOVIC: We'll just keep this shot running out for now until we see the President. James, you did see those comments coming from Iran in the last few hours. You know, the spill-over, threatening the spill-over beyond Israel to its neighbours. How likely is that?
PATERSON: We don't yet know whether Iran and the IRGC in particular ordered or directed the particular attack that Hamas undertook on Israel. But what we do know is that Hamas and Hezbollah are financed and supported by Iran through the IRGC, which is the world's largest state sponsor of terrorism. So Iran is intimately involved in these attacks. And Iran would be intimately involved if there's an escalation of these attacks or a broadening of these attacks to other terrorist groups in the region, because they ultimately have enormous influence over them. And the comments that Ayatollah made are incredibly threatening and menacing. And what Iran needs to understand in return is that the resolve of the United States and its allies is also very clear. And there would be very severe consequences, obviously, for Iran if it were to be involved in broadening or widening this conflict.
STEFANOVIC: Do you think the US President's trip to Tel Aviv has forced the delay of a potential ground invasion?
PATERSON: I don't know, Pete, and there could be a range of operational reasons why that's the case. Israel has engaged in a very significant mobilisation of reservists and that takes time. This will be an incredibly complex operation if they do proceed with the ground invasion as it looks like they will. The attempt to rescue their hostages alone is extremely complex. This would be very close fighting in a very densely populated area and there are significant advantages for those who are on the defensive side of that fight to have the opportunity to prepare, to plan and to set traps for the force that's going to be entering into the region. So it's extremely challenging and complex operation. So the range of reasons why it could be delayed that might relate to the President's visit, but other factors as well.
STEFANOVIC: Okay and your opponent, Clare O'Neil, she was speaking this morning on the Australians who have now returned home, 1200 Australians have returned from Israel. One flight last night, there's another flight landing today. But she mentioned that there are still 1200 people in Israel who have expressed some kind of interest in returning home but not fully committing. When people aren't fully committed like that because not everyone wants to come home, how many more flights, you know, how much further can you put our assets, if we can call it that, our planes in risk, waiting for people who may or may not come?
PATERSON: My view, Pete, is that the Australian government should continue to provide evacuation flights for as long as it is safe operationally to do so. But those Australians in Israel who wish to leave my advice to them is to leave now while you know that you can, because it is very possible that soon you won't be able to. Certainly, if Hezbollah entered the conflict from the north, it's highly likely that all flights in and out of Israel would not be possible and you might find yourselves unable to leave. So, the Australian government must continue to provide that service for as long as it is safe, but as soon as it becomes unsafe to do so, they will have to stop. And that may leave some Australians who wish to leave stuck there.
STEFANOVIC: Would you say the government's handled those flights pretty well so far?
PATERSON: It's certainly good to see the number of Australians who have been lifted out. I congratulate the government on that operation that they've run. It is important that we continue to provide those options for Australians for as long as we can, we shouldn't cut that short. But Australians need to understand if you wait, you might be waiting for too long and finding you can't get out.
STEFANOVIC: James Paterson. An extended chat there. Appreciate that, James. Thank you so much as always. We'll talk to you again soon.
ENDS
