February 14, 2022
PAUL MURRAY: And speaking of it,none other than the great James Paterson, the most clear-eyed person in the Parliament when it comes to China. Way before it was fashionable, he was a Wolverine and is even growing to beard to fit. Great, man. Lovely to see you.
SENATORJAMES PATERSON: Likewise, thanks Paul.
MURRAY: I said it on the show last week; China hacking our political system was the biggest story last week. I don't care about the noise, I don't care about the hate, and I don't care about the Press Club. This was the biggest story in the country. Now, the ABC tried to tell us this was about Russia. Ok. Then multiple reports said it was about China, and we know where the form is. As a person who is at the front line of this stuff;how important is this story about how sophisticated the operation is firstly, to try to fiddle with us, but secondly, how to push back?
SENATORPATERSON: Paul, it's a massive, massive story, and as big as it is, it could have been even bigger if it wasn't for the success of ASIO and the team led by their Director-General Mike Burgess, in intercepting this plot at a relatively early stage and successfully disrupting it because it was a very sophisticated plot. It involved hundreds of thousands of dollars in offshore bank accounts. It involved a puppeteer, an influential businessman. A cut out, or an intermediary, someone in between who didn't appear to represent that businessman. And ultimately a foreign government and its intelligence services that were pulling the strings. Their plot involved making donations to candidates, identifying and supporting them through the preselection processes, funnelling to them volunteers and staffers and promising them favourable coverage in ethnic media in Australia to help them get elected. Now, all of that would have created a sense of obligation, a sense of dependency on those members of Parliament should they be elected, that could be cashed in to at a future time. And as Mike Burgess said, that could be to divulge Australia's secrets in relation to foreign affairs, defence, trade or human rights policy,or could even be pressure for them to vote a certain way within their political party or within even the Parliament on an issue of interest or concern to that foreign government. So, this was a major attempt to subvert Australian democracy, and thankfully it was caught this time. But there'll be many more attempts I'm afraid.
MURRAY: Well, also, I mean, we see this with business leaders, education leaders, which is when issues are running a certain way then magically these people will start to pop up and say; well, we should manage the relationship. Essentially, the code for shut up. Don't antagonise. By antagonise they mean defend your position by the sort of gaslighting which is obviously that very modern term about trying to pretend that something is what it isn't. Also, I think what's really important here is that, you know, Albanese, with the help of the ghost and the rest, seem to think that the"reds under the bed," it's all ridiculous to talk about this stuff,but it couldn't be more important to talk about this stuff because, as you know, there are only two options here. When somebody is bullying you, do you steel your spine and defend? Don't even have to lean forward and attack, just defend. Or, you just step back by an inch and then another inch, and then you don't say when they're bullying someone else, because that's what sadly has started to happen in New Zealand, when New Zealand is a Five Eyes country, it's got plenty of access to the same sorts of information that we do, but their relationship with China is a little more of now being the one who doesn't want to call out what's happening to places like Australia.
SENATORPATERSON: That's right, Paul, and if you thought the last couple of years of economic coercion,intimidation, bullying and interference by China towards Australia was bad,then just imagine how bad it would be if we gave in to those tactics and sent the message that they were successful. Well, we'd get a whole lot more of it from China. And probably not just from them, but other countries as well that wanted to bully us and get what they wanted from us because we'd be showing to them that we're an easy mark, that we're fair game, that if you put these tactics on Australia, they'll be successful. And their demands would only escalate to the point to which I think Australia would eventually just become a vassal state, an independent country in name only. Not a country that is sovereign, not a country that is free, not a country that's democratic and that determines its own future in its own best interests.
MURRAY: Do you believe Anthony Albanese when he says there's no difference between their approach and the government's approach?
SENATORPATERSON: I would really, really like to believe that, Paul, it would be a great thing if it were true, and I've spent the last five years on these issues trying to build as much bipartisan consensus as possible on the issue of China because I think it is in the national interest. I try to do it through the informal Wolverines grouping that you've talked about, to the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance and in my role on the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security. But the truth is, as you know, we have an election just around the corner and the Labor Party fears nothing more than scrutiny of its standing on national security. So, of course, they're saying that these issues are totally bipartisan. Of course, they're saying there's no difference between the Labor Party and the government on these issues. But if you have the memory of more than just a goldfish, if you look back over the last length of this entire term, you'll see very clearly that earlier in this term, the Labor Party made areal point of difference between the government on China. They went out of their way to criticise us and in fact, blame us for the deteriorating trading relationship with China and for a long time now they were promising that if they were elected, they'd deliver a better and closer relationship with China if they were elected. Richard Marles, as the Shadow Defence Minister, said we'd have closer relations with the People's Liberation Army. And now, of course,they don't want to talk about that. Of course, they're hiding that, but they should be held to account for all of their contributions to this debate, not just the ones that they made in the last five minutes.
MURRAY: Thank you. Great, man. Do appreciate it very much so. You've got to judge them on form, not just on what they're saying in the lead up to an election. Thank you, mate. Senator James Paterson always clear-eyed on this.
ENDS
