February 15, 2022
CHRIS KENNY: Let's go to Canberra and catch up with Liberal Senator James Paterson, he's Chair of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security. Thanks for joining us, James. We'll come to some of these matters when it comes to China in a moment, but just on these issues I talked about at the top. What's your view of the Western Australian Parliament imposing a vaccine mandate on its MPs?
SENATOR JAMES PATERSON: Chris,sometimes I think we are stuck back in March 2020 when we had a brand new virus, which we didn't know much about. We had no successful vaccines or treatments, and people were genuinely fearful about what they didn't know. And I think we need to catch up with the reality of 2022, which is that the current variant Omicron is much less severe than previous ones. We not only have a number of successful vaccines, we have one of the world's highest rates of vaccination and there are some fantastic treatments available for people who do contract COVID and need that because they're in a high risk category. So, the way we respond to it, the way we deal with it should be very different. And it seems bizarre to me that this late in the pandemic, we have State Parliaments introducing discrimination to their MPs. I'm less concerned about the MPs themselves. I'm concerned about their constituents who go unrepresented in their State Parliament, not have their voice heard. Now, West Australia's not the only State Parliament to have done this. Victoria has done this as well. And I just find it very difficult to justify or understand.
KENNY: Well, it's anti-democratic too, because the only way to overturn this is through a motion of Parliament and some of the politicians who would like to vote against it aren't allowed into the building.
SENATOR PATERSON: That's exactly right, Chris. I think we should be very, very careful before parliaments vote to exclude their fellow members, there would have to be an extraordinarily good justification for that. There are limitations actually on the federal parliament from being able to do that because in a different era, MPs were kicked out of the parliament because of their political beliefs and affiliations, and that's obviously deeply problematic. I'm not accountable hereto any other politician. I'm accountable to my constituents, and we each have aright to be here to represent our constituents and no one else.
KENNY: Now, just very briefly, Zali Steggall to try and pin or blame her secrecy over $100,000 donation on Liberal intimidation. What do you make of that?
SENATOR PATERSON: Transparency for thee but not for me, Chris. This is political hypocrisy personified. And I think a basic requirement of someone who advocates for greater transparency and more regulation of political donations is that they at very least comply with the existing donation regime. And if, as you say, they make a genuine error,then they should be upfront about that, public about that and share it with the public as soon as it happens. Not hope that no one notices and then when people do notice, complain and try and play the victim. I think it reflects very poorly on Zali and on her sincerity in advocating for donations reform, she appears to think that others should meet a higher standard than she's willing to meet herself.
KENNY: Now let's go to foreign powers trying to interfere in our democracy and your Labor Senator, Senate colleague, Kimberley Kitching, last night quizzed the ASIO boss, Mike Burgess, putting to him who she thought the puppeteer trying to interfere in our democracy was.
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KENNY: Well, that was said under parliamentary privilege, of course. Chau Chak Wing has denied these claims, but can we be confident that we are talking about Chinese interests here, Senator?
SENATOR PATERSON: Well,Chris, as you know, that was said under privilege, and neither you or I have privilege here on your program, so I'll be careful what I say and of course.It's not my role as the Intelligence Committee Chair to declassify live on your program for your viewers classified intelligence. What I would say is the foreign espionage and interference threat is very real and the overwhelming,although not only, culprit of that is the Chinese Communist Party. There are other countries that seek to do this as well. And it's very troubling. And I'm grateful to ASIO and its Director-General Mike Burgess, for their success in disrupting this particular attempt. But we know there will be many more attempts. There may be attempts underway right now and we all have to be on guard to those and safeguard the responsibility we have for Australia's sovereignty and democracy.
KENNY: Well, Defence Minister Peter Dutton has been very strident in saying there is a problem with Labor. It's seen as being weak on China, and that Beijing is effectively barracking for a Labor win. The Prime Minister said as much today on radio.
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KENNY: So Beijing's got a horse in this race?
SENATOR PATERSON: Chris,I've seen the last 24 to 48 hours, particularly coming from commentators herein Canberra, a very quick exoneration of the Labor Party when it comes to any partisan differences on the relationship with China. They say because Anthony Albanese gave an interview a week or two ago saying it was bipartisan on the issue of China, that that's case closed, and we don't need to examine it any further. Well, if you have a memory that's a little bit longer than a goldfish and you go back to say the start of this parliamentary term throughout this parliamentary term, as opposed to literally the last couple of weeks, I think you'll see a very concerted pattern of behaviour from the Labor Party, from the leader down, including its senior shadow ministers of seeking to take advantage of partisan differences on the issue of China and for many years blaming the government. Blaming the Australian government for China's decision to impose sanctions, trade sanctions on us to seek to economically coerce us. Now, of course, we're five minutes before an election and the Labor Party realises that's not a political winner anymore. They don't want to be seen to be undermining the national response on China. And so they're running around assuring everyone that it's bipartisan. Well, it would be nice if it actually had been bipartisan for the last three years, but I think the evidence shows that's not the case.
KENNY: Well, Paul Keating, Bob Carr,Sam Dastyari are no longer in parliament, but they can't be unremembered from the public debate. And what they say still speaks to the broader Labor movement. I think, just briefly though, another Labor Senator Sue Lines, last week referred to apartheid in reference to Israel. Again, Labor says it's rock solid on Israel. Using that word wouldn't suggest it is.
SENATOR PATERSON: It was a disgraceful and ill-informed speech from Senator Sue Lines and not the first one she's made on this topic, and the Labor Party has made no efforts as far as I can see, to rein her in. Certainly no successful ones. Again on the issue of Israel they swear black and blue that it is bipartisan, and I would really like that to be the case. But again, the record shows otherwise. When you have Senators like Sue Lines out there vilifying Israel in this way, then I think we are entitled to draw attention to that and to call into question the Labor Party's sincere commitment to bipartisanship on Israel.
KENNY: Senator, thanks so much for joining us.
SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
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