February 14, 2022
Monday 14 February 2022
Sky News: AM Agenda
Subjects: Foreign espionage and interference in parliament, Richard Marles’ secret China speech, Newspoll
LAURA JAYES: Joining me live now is Liberal Senator and Chair of the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Intelligence and Security James Paterson. Good to see you. Thanks so much for your time.First of all, as we go into an election campaign, as candidates are pre-selected, how worried should we be?
SENATORJAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Laura. Look, these are very serious challenges. The ASIO Director General, Mike Burgess has said that foreign espionage and interference has now supplanted terrorism as our principal security concern. That means it takes up more time and resources of ASIO and other national security agencies than ever before, and it is a very real threat. He talked about one particular plot that was successfully disrupted by ASIO, but I have no doubt that there are foreign intelligence services right now today currently planning other ways to try and intervene in our democracy.
JAYES: Is China targeting the Labor Party specifically, do you think?
SENATORPATERSON: It's not my role as Intelligence Committee Chair to declassify live on your program classified intelligence. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment on that directly. I have said in the past, though, that China is the principal espionage and foreign interference threat to Australia and that they are constantly probing and constantly seeking weaknesses and opportunities in our political system. And that all political parties and all candidates who stand for office need to be on guard and alert to those attempts.
JAYES: So do we know that perhaps this has been successful in the past? I mean, it's hard to tell, isn't it? Would you be concerned about any sympathetic MPs or Senators in Parliament?
SENATORPATERSON: What I can talk about, Laura, is things are already on the public record and out there and probably the biggest wakeup call the Australian political system had was the Sam Dastyari affair a few years ago, where a Chinese political donor, Huang Xiangmo, succeeded in influencing Sam Dastyari to the extent to which Sam did a joint press conference with him at the Commonwealth Parliamentary Offices in Sydney, standing in front of the Australian coat of arms. Sam articulated the Chinese government's position on the South China Sea, not the Australian government's position on the South China Sea. That is an insight into how those operations can proceed. The impact that they can have. I'm very confident that our security and intelligence agencies do their very best. But as they say,they are not all seeing and they are not all knowing and they cannot catch everything. It's also incumbent on political parties and political leaders to do their best as well.
JAYES: Indeed. But what about our business leaders? I mean, it wasn't that long ago that Andrew Forrest did a joint media conference with the Chinese ambassador. Is that a concern?
SENATOR PATERSON:Yes. Particularly in he Chinese Communist Party and particularly under the United Front Work Department, they look for all avenues of influence and coercion. They are looking to local government, state government, federal government, business leaders and cultural figures, the university sector. And yes, it is absolutely a concern when people of influence and people of stature in our community effectively get co-opted by foreign governments to articulate their arguments for us in Australia. The problem with that, of course, is that these people have credibility that they wouldn't otherwise have, that a foreign government wouldn't have. If a Chinese diplomat stood up and said these things, it could be dismissed out of hand. But if an Australian businessman stood up and articulated their arguments on their behalf, it masks the ultimate influence there. That's the reason why the Foreign Influence Transparency Scheme was introduced. It's why we toughened up our foreign espionage and foreign interference legislation. But I think there's more work to be done in that space, and the Intelligence Committee is currently reviewing the FITS scheme.
JAYES: It's very clear that the Liberal Party,the government, sees the economy and intelligence and security as their strong campaign points going into an election. Why shouldn't this be seen as something that your government, that you, are talking up because it might help you at the election?
SENATORPATERSON: I think Australians do trust the Liberal National parties on those issues because we have a long record of delivering on those issues. And I understand why the Labor Party on the eve of an election is trying to do its best to narrow the gap and say that there's no difference on national security or on relationship with China. But you don't require a very long memory to go back and look through, just this term for example, the many instances where Labor leaders,shadow ministers and senior MPs have sought to take political advantage from the deteriorating relationship with China. For example, on Insiders last year,Richard Marles said that there would be closer relations between China and Australia under the Labor Party because they would do diplomacy better. He also delivered a speech in September 2019 in Beijing, where he promised closer military ties between the People's Liberation Army and the Australian Defence Force if Labor won. That speech curiously, Laura, is no longer present on his website. I'm not sure why – a website that otherwise very well documents his speeches, his interviews, his media releases – that particular speech has disappeared. Perhaps there's something that he's embarrassed about in that speech. Perhaps he has something to hide.
JAYES: Or perhaps there’s something in what you're saying as well? Isn't this kind of division and partisan politics exactly something that plays into China's hands?
SENATORPATERSON: Laura, over the last five years, I've worked very hard to establish as strong as possible bipartisan consensus on these issues informally through the infamous Wolverines grouping, more formally through the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China,where I work very closely with Labor MPs and in my role in the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security where I work very closely with the Deputy Chair from the Labor Party and the shadow ministers from Labor Party.And we have achieved some important bipartisan gains. And I do absolutely acknowledge the Labor Party has supported some very important legislation on a bipartisan basis through the Parliament. But I'm not going to lie and I'm not going to mislead the Australian people that we have always been on the same page and that the Labor Party is as committed as the Liberal Party has been,has demonstrated as being in its willingness to stand up to China's government coercion and tactics. I mean, Madeleine King, the Shadow Minister for Trade,has spent the last couple of years until recently, where she's gone very quiet,attacking the government and blaming the Australian government for the deterioration of our trading relationship with China. Now, of course, they've stopped doing that now because we're close to an election and they don't want there to be any difference between us because they know that would be apolitical cost for them. But it doesn't mean that all of us should forget about what they've been saying over the last few years.
JAYES: Indeed. Let me finally quickly ask you about Newspoll. It's still pretty bad for the government. Not great for Morrison, there's not very many good points, except that it hasn't gone down since the last Newspoll. Do you think the ukulele playing helped?
SENATORPATERSON: Look, there's no question, Laura, that we've got work to do in the lead up to the next election, but I'm confident as Australians contemplate the choice between Scott Morrison and Anthony Albanese that they won't want to make Prime Minister the guy who's never handed down a budget, never held an economic portfolio, never held a national security portfolio. They're going to want to stick with the Prime Minister, who has navigated Australia through a very difficult period,and we're entering into even more uncertain waters. This is the most uncertain geopolitical environment in a generation and they'd much rather continuity.
JAYES: How can you be a daggy dad and have a,you know, safe hand on national security?
SENATORPATERSON: Scott Morrison's a very clever man. He'sable to walk and chew gum at the same time. He can both play a ukulele and Chair the National Security Committee of Cabinet and make decisions like investing $270 billion in new defence capability over the next decade. Standing up for Australia's national interests, values on the international stage.
JAYES: All right. Thanks so much, James Paterson. We'll speak soon.
SENATORPATERSON: Thanks, Laura.
ENDS
