November 24, 2022
Thursday 24 November 2022
ABC RN with Andy Park
Subjects: Drew Pavlou, Parliament House Security, Senate Select Committee on Foreign Interference through Social Media
Andy Park: Joining me now is the Spokesperson for Cyber Security and Countering Foreign Intelligence [Interference]. I should also add, he chaired the Intelligence Committee in the last parliament. He joins me now from our Parliament House studio. Welcome to you, Senator.
James Paterson: Good to be with you.
Andy Park: Drew Pavlou was allowed into the Parliament House today. The AFP say it was their decision,but are we any closer understanding why he was asked to leave yesterday? What's your understanding?
James Paterson: I don't want to be too critical of the AFP because they have an important and difficult job of protecting Parliament House. And unfortunately we have seen in the past people try to disrupt the activity of the Parliament, even vandalise the parliament with graffiti. We had some Extinction Rebellion protesters who set a pram on fire on the forecourt of Parliament House. So they have an important and difficult job. Having said that, I find it difficult to understand why Drew Pavlou was high risk one day and not a risk the next day,and why he could have meetings in a secure area of Parliament House which requires him to be signed in by a member of staff.
Andy Park: Staff by your office, just to clarify?
James Paterson: Yes,that's right. But couldn't be in the public area in Parliament House, where when he was approached by AFP members, he was having a flat white. I don't think there was anything in his behaviour which demonstrated that he was a risk to the building or its occupants.
Andy Park: Yet when you see the video and see the video, I mean, it was all done very politely. And there's no question at all about Parliament House. Frontline security staff are great, but what does it say to you that he was asked to leave while, in his words, he wasn't actively protesting? This goes back to earlier events, really, and his claims about some fake bomb threats that he was actually intending to talk to you about in the meeting.
James Paterson: Yes, I'm concerned about this because Drew Pavlou is someone who has not been charged or convicted of any crime and is a political activist who does engage in protests. But that is a lawful political activity that any Australian is entitled to undertake. And it doesn't seem like a reasonable grounds to exclude him from Parliament House, given that his behaviour while he was in Parliament House did not give any rise to any concern about any activity he might have planned to undertake. There was no evidence that he was going to do that. I mean, people who protest visit Parliament House all the time. It's very common for unionists who protest or environmental activists to protest, to come to Parliament House because this is the seat of Australia's democracy. They are Australian citizens and as long as they are not disruptive in the building,they're entitled to be.
Andy Park: It wasn't that long ago that Julian Assange, his family, visited the Parliament House and security took away some materials. I think it was books from the top of my memory. So as much as you support Drew Pavlou’s presence in Parliament House,do you also support the Assange family and whatever materials they were carrying that day over the books in this case?
James Paterson: I'm not sure what materials they were carrying and what the grounds was for taking them off. But let me be absolutely consistent here. Any Australian citizen who is behaving appropriately should have a right to access Parliament House, and must have a right to meet with parliamentarians who invite them to be there and agree to have a meeting with them. In fact, we have a parliamentary privilege in Westminster democracies for that very reason. It's unlawful for the Australian Federal Police or anyone else to interfere with the activities of a member of parliament. And it would very serious indeed if they were doing so. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here and the opportunity to explain themselves. I believe that they'll be considering this. I spoke to the police commissioner, Reece Kershaw, this afternoon. I'm sure they'll have a review. And if they decide that they had done anything untoward here, I'm sure they will appropriately reflect on that.
Andy Park: Mr. Pavlou is, well, shall we say, pretty good at attracting attention for the things he believes in, notwithstanding the merits of those arguments. Did you meet him today? Did you have a flat white in the end with him today?
James Paterson: Well,actually, what happened was we he and I met in the morning yesterday and he was due to meet Peter Khalil, the new chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee in the evening. And that meeting wasn't able to go ahead. I believe they both seeking to reschedule that meeting so that meeting can take place. SoI hope they can have a flat white at some point.
Andy Park: Hardly seems a crime. I mean, you know, are you a flat white drinker yourself?
James Paterson: I'm more of a latte type guy, which is probably not a good admission for a Liberal senator to make. But I am on ABC Radio, so perhaps I'm safe.
Andy Park: It would seem a ban on political activism from entering Parliament House has been lifted. Drew Pavlou was attempting to meet with Senator James Paterson yesterday. He's with you now here on RN Drive. While I've got you, Senator. The Senate has agreed to re-establish the Senate Select Committee into foreign interference through social media. It's not a surprise given it recommended itself to be re-established. But will there be a shift in its focus given some of these recent events around the world?
James Paterson: Yes, I think there are new and emerging challenges for the committee to really get its teeth stuck into, and I hope we'll do that over the coming months. A couple of issues. One, we've seen some very serious harassment of political activists within Australia, including in the Iranian diaspora community, but also people working on human rights issues related to China and the Chinese government, particularly those working on Uyghur issues in Xinjiang, have been very seriously harassed online, both on Western social media platforms like Twitter and Facebook and YouTube, but also on platforms headquartered in authoritarian states like TikTok and WeChat. So that's going to need to be examined. We're also going to have to continue to examine the long standing issue of misinformation and disinformation on those platforms. The Russian government is particularly adept, and has demonstrated in the last year or so in relation to its invasion of Ukraine, that it can pump our systems in the West with false information in a way to try and influence our political debate and undermine our support for Ukraine in their resistance to that invasion. So it is a very serious issue and we will be providing recommendations to the government for action.
Andy Park: All the while, Twitter, which obviously bills itself as the sort of town square of public debate, has been going through a tremendous upheaval. Many of the moderation staff have left or have been sacked. Does that concern you when it comes to keeping in check some of these, you know, violent or hate speech related messages on social media?
James Paterson: It certainly would concern me if it makes it easier for a foreign state intelligence service, for example, to more easily propagate false accounts,false narratives, false information in our political system. And I would be very concerned if Twitter was undermining some of the good work it has done in the past on that. One of the things that Twitter does, which some other social media platforms don't do, like TikTok, for example, is that they proactively label accounts that are associated with governments. They say, for example,this is a Chinese state affiliated account. That's a very useful thing for us as users of that service to know that where that person is coming from and their perspective, it allows them to not obscure where they're ultimately coming from. And if that was to be undermined by the changes at Twitter, then that will be really concerning.
Andy Park: Will you seek to chair this committee, given your shadow portfolios and your work in the Intelligence and Security Committee?
James Paterson: Look,it is a matter for the committee, but I am the Senator who initiated the inquiry. And when the committee is established, yes, I will be seeking to be Chair.
Andy Park: Senator James Paterson as the Shadow Minister for Cyber Security and Countering Foreign Intelligence [Interference]. Appreciate your time tonight.
James Paterson: Thank you.
ENDS
