February 21, 2025
STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Now we've sort of touched on this earlier this morning that ASIO boss Mike Burgess has revealed that there were multiple nations plotting to murder critics on our soil. To talk to us about this, we're joined by the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, James Paterson. James, good morning.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Stephen.
CENATIEMPO: I spoke to Barnaby Joyce earlier this morning and his criticism of Mike Burgess, his comments is we only get half the story, but I suppose there's only so much he can tell us?
PATERSON: Yes, I mean, I'm not sure what the expectation of the Director-General is? That he should compromise sources and methods and cause diplomatic incidents? It's appropriate that the Director General tell us as much as he can within the constraints that he has. He can't do anything that compromises the collection of intelligence, nor is it his job to decide what Australia's foreign policy is. But he can tell us quite a lot without compromising those two things, and I strongly support the speech he gives each year.
CENATIEMPO: Having said that, this really highlights why national security is such an important issue leading into this next election because if we've got people plotting to kill Australian citizens and reading between the lines, we're talking about, you know, not only politicians or intelligence operatives here, but even people like myself, for instance, who might speak out against the wrong country.
PATERSON: That's right, it's often people who are critics of foreign regimes, often human rights activists, and often people who have come from those regimes originally and come to Australia to seek refuge and safety. And they're taking advantage of the freedoms that they now enjoy as Australian citizens to be activists about the treatment of the people from their home country. And they have every right to do that and we must safeguard those rights very jealously and protect them. And that's why it's very important that we send a strong message to those countries that we know what they are doing, that we can expose them for doing it, and they better stop it.
CENATIEMPO: I want to talk about another issue here because, I mean, all this ties into border security. And, you know, the immigration situation at the moment is perplexing, to put it mildly. But we've now seen a double convicted murderer, a contract killer, has been spared deportation under a new ministerial direction. I mean, surely, if there's any poster boy for somebody who should be deported, it's this bloke.
PATERSON: So your listeners might remember the shocking deportation debacle that started with the issuing of something called Ministerial Direction 99. It was a decision by the Albanese government at the Prime Minister's direction implemented by Andrew Giles to soften the rules for deporting people who commit crimes while in the community. Now, that caused a massive scandal about 12 months ago. Under pressure from the Opposition, they updated that direction with a new direction called Ministerial Direction 110. But it wasn't strong enough either because it maintained ties to the community as a primary consideration for someone being able to stay in Australia. And lo and behold, only a few months later, we now have convicted murderers who are non-citizens who should normally have their visas cancelled and be deported, being allowed to stay in Australia because of the weakness of the Albanese government.
CENATIEMPO: So when we say strong ties to Australia, so what? So what are we suggesting here? That this bloke who's a contract killer, I imagine, was sent out here to murder somebody rather than has been convicted of that. But now, because he has friends or family here, we're saying, well, we're not going to get rid of him.
PATERSON: Well, without commenting on this specific case for obvious reasons, generally the case is that the person has formed relationships while they've been in Australia. They might have entered into a marriage, or they might have children, or they might have friends or family. But my view is, no matter how strong those ties to the community are, if you have broken the compact when you came to this country, which is, please abide by our laws, then you're not welcome to stay in this country if you're not a citizen. If you break our laws, if you put Australians in danger, then you can go back to where you came from and we will cancel your visa and deport you without hesitation. But this government doesn't have the stomach for that tough decision.
CENATIEMPO: Do we need to go a step further here and revisit our entire citizenship process? Because, you know, we also have a problem where, you know, people come to this country, we think under the right reasons and then become citizens and then behave in a manner untoward. Do we have to look at some process where citizenship can be stripped?
PATERSON: So there are some very limited, narrow citizenship stripping provisions. If we can demonstrate that someone engaged in fraud when they obtained their citizenship, they lied effectively through the process. That's one ground you can take off their citizenship. The only other is if someone's convicted of a very serious criminal offence like terrorism or foreign interference or espionage. As part of sentencing for that conviction, the citizenship can be cancelled. It used to be the case that a Minister had the power to cancel someone's citizenship, but the High Court found that that's not lawful. So the government's hands are tied a little bit here, but there is still room to move within those constraints. And you just have to have a government that's willing to do something about it.
CENATIEMPO: But what I'm saying, is there an opportunity, if there is a change of government, for you to change the laws and tighten. You know, make citizenship valuable again. Because I always use the example of Florida, sorry, Austria, for instance, where it takes eight years to obtain Austrian citizenship, by the time you get your citizenship, you value it because you've had to work hard for it. We seem to give it out like cornflakes packets.
PATERSON: I think you really hit the nail on the head there. I think there is something about citizenship that is not being valued highly enough. I mean, right now, we have the Minister for Home Affairs rushing through these special emergency citizenship ceremonies in Western Sydney only apparently, to put thousands of more people on the electoral roll just before an election, and that is not treating Australian citizenship with the respect it deserves. That's politicising Australian citizenship, using it in a partisan way, and it's completely inappropriate and devalues it. And if you devalue it, well then don't expect it to be respected.
CENATIEMPO: I just want to touch on one other thing before I let you go, James. Yesterday, Sky News held their antisemitism summit and the rise in anti-Semitism kind of ties into a lot of these issues we're talking too at the moment. What do you make of the fact that a news organisation has had to put this summit on and that the accusation from the Attorney-General at this summit was that it's being politicised by the opposition and by media outlets, which kind of, I guess, downplays the issue here?
PATERSON: Well, Stephen, I actually think this was a great act of corporate leadership from News Corp. Good on them for putting the spotlight on this important issue. I doubt they sold any extra subscriptions or any extra newspapers because of this concern about antisemitism. I believe that it's a sincere concern and it's responding to a community concern. And it's bizarre that the Attorney General of Australia, who was coming to deliver a speech at this summit, decided that it was an appropriate forum to attack the opposition and attack the media for their concern about antisemitism. I think all we need to know about the standing of Mark Dreyfus in the Jewish community right now is that he was booed at the antisemitism summit and, after the antisemitism summit, was criticised by the Rabbi who hosted it and by the Jewish community leader who helped convene it. That speaks volumes.
CENATIEMPO: No doubt about that. James, great to talk to you this morning. Thanks for your time.
PATERSON: Thanks Stephen.
ENDS
