January 17, 2025
MICHAEL MCLAREN: Senator James Paterson is the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, and he is on the line. James, good to speak again. Thank you.
JAMES PATERSON: Good to be with you, Michael.
MCLAREN: Despite the circumstances. It seems we speak often now, and it's because people who just happen to be Jewish, or maybe they're not, but they live in areas where a lot of Jewish people happen to live. They're having their cars bombed, their places of worship attacked, their homes graffitied, red arrows and paint sprayed on their local MP's office windows, windows smashed, Children afraid. This is Sydney and Melbourne in 2025.
PATERSON: That's right, Michael. And if it wasn't already clear enough to everyone what's happening here, I think today's events have removed all remaining doubt. What we have here is a campaign of domestic terrorism targeting the Jewish community. One or two isolated events might be something, but we have now had dozens of serious events like this which involve violent acts, including arson. And unlike our Home Affairs Minister, who thinks this is just a criminal matter, I think this is a matter of national security, and I think this is a matter of terrorism. And the people who are responsible for this terrorist campaign need to be found, need to be arrested, need to be charged, need to be convicted of terrorism offences to demonstrate the gravity with which we take this issue.
MCLAREN: I think most people listening would agree. We've had the government today, and I don't know if they're getting focus groups behind the scenes that are telling them, listen, you know, you're on the wrong tram here, you've got to change tack because they are getting tougher rhetorically. And now there's some money on the table as well, obviously. But they're out there warning today against, and I quote here, "the grotesque exploitation", end quote, of the war in Gaza to fuel domestic unrest. Well, that grotesque exploitation has been on display since October 8th of last year. We've seen the faces of people chanting and preaching and encouraging this sort of thing. And yet I do wonder how many people are behind bars, how many before a magistrate, how many have been deported?
PATERSON: Well, very few is the answer to that question. And as with everything with this government, it is always too little and too late. Where was that language and where was this funding, and where was this action 15 months ago when it was already clear that we had a serious problem in our hands? Like you, I think it started on the 8th of October. There was that rally in western Sydney celebrating the events of 7th October. It was before any Israeli response to that atrocity, and it was people in our community, in our country, celebrating. And they have faced no sanction for their behaviour. Nor did the people who paraded on the steps of the Sydney Opera House the next day. Nor have the people who have been flying the flags of listed terrorist organisations in Sydney and Melbourne almost every weekend since then. And we should not be surprised when there has been no action, when there are no consequences, that extremists become emboldened, and their behaviour escalates. And we now have this campaign of domestic terrorism in the suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne.
MCLAREN: Look, you and I agree on almost everything, but I think we both got something wrong there, James. We've both said it started on the 8th of October. I think if we're being honest, the truth is it started a thousand years ago, and it's been handed down from generation to the next generation. Largely, it's been curtailed to the Middle East, but because of migration, it's come to Australia, and it's now being germinated in some of our suburbs, in some of our places of worship, in some of our community centres. And the leadership required to nip it in the bud as best as possible has been missing in action until very recently. Right?
PATERSON: I think you're right. I mean, all racism is morally abhorrent. But anti-Semitism is the oldest and deepest sickness of humanity. It has been with us for thousands of years and it is a cancer. Once it takes hold in society, very bad things follow, and history shows us that. And the only thing you can do to combat it is nip it in the bud and early. Act decisively, act strongly, with moral clarity and courage, and the failure of the Prime Minister to appreciate how serious this is and act accordingly is why it is getting worse. And there are things that the federal government can do. They should be deporting people who are committing these offences on visas. They should be ensuring that the law is enforced. That police have the resources, our security intelligence agencies have the powers to make sure these people can be found, can be punished for their behaviour. And they should be leading from the front because frankly, in some ways the government has actually exacerbated and contributed to this rather than tackled it. When you have the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, the Home Affairs Minister and others vilifying the Jewish state, the state of Israel, it encourages and licenses some of this behaviour in our community.
MCLAREN: Yeah. On that, I don't expect you to name names or go into specifics. You can't, and that's not allowed. But we talk about people should be deported. Are you aware of anybody? Who is known to the law, who's been dabbling in this awful behaviour, who could be deported now? I mean, in other words, are there people we could have on the tarmac at 3:00 this afternoon? But we just haven't done it?
PATERSON: I have grave concerns that at the very least, some of the people engaged in incitement to violence against the Jewish community online and on social media are here on visas and have not had their visas cancelled. There are people I think that are in our country who have a history of engaging in that kind of online vilification, who came here on visas on this government's watch. And I am not aware of any action that has been taken to cancel those visas. And so this government stands accused of exacerbating this problem by bringing people into this country who have those views and allowing them to stay.
MCLAREN: Okay. The $100 million-odd-dollar thing, it is 106 million, 106.2 to be precise spending package. I think there's some merit in some of this. Certainly, the expansion of the New South Wales Step Together Program. I mean, these programs have their limits. You know this better than me, but if you look internationally at these sorts of programs, they can be a bit hit-and-miss. But I guess if you don't try something, you're accused rightly of failing to try something, so you've got to give it a go, right?
PATERSON: You're right, Michael. But this is really business as usual. This is what governments do. They have counterterrorism strategies. They release them and update them periodically. They try new programs, they add new funding. It's just standard business of government. It is not a response to the crisis that we've seen. And because things have got so out of hand, because they've been allowed to get so out of hand, I don't think business as usual is enough. I think we need much more decisive and strong action. I mean, it is flabbergasting to me, the Prime Minister has still not called a national cabinet. Peter Dutton wrote to the Prime Minister on the 14th of November, just a month after the 7th of October, and called on him to call a national cabinet. The Prime Minister hasn't even had the courtesy to reply. And now his own hand-picked anti-Semitism envoy has called on him to do so, and he's saying he won't do that. What could be more serious and requiring of a national cabinet meeting than this?
MCLAREN: Most would agree with that. We've got a cease fire deal now seemingly inked in Jerusalem. Let's hope it holds to some extent, although we are led to believe that this Sunday and for the rest of the Sundays as far as the eye can see, we're going to continue to have these so-called pro-Palestine protests in the Sydney CBD and elsewhere. The sapping up police resources, slowing down the use of trade and business in the city, creating havoc and all the rest of it. I mean, is it time, as I said, state Premiers have been, well, certainly, Chris Minns has been saying the right things, But I mean, is it time we start denying the right to block the streets for these Sunday weekly protests about Palestine?
PATERSON: Well, I hope, like you, Michael, that the ceasefire agreement does result in the calming of tensions here. But frankly, I don't hold out hope. As you say, we've had some of the activists behind these protests saying that they will continue their protests until the state of Israel is abolished, until they have a one state solution in the Middle East, which is effectively the abolition of the state of Israel and would lead to the eradication of the Jewish people in the Middle East. These are extremists, and they have extreme objectives. And I think we should be putting a very close microscope on their behaviour to see whether any of it meets a criminal threshold. And frankly, we should have reformed our federal laws on incitement to violence a long time ago to make sure that this behaviour is captured. But the government has failed to do so. And as you say, state governments also have powers to consider whether these protests are in the public interest. And Chris Minns, I agree, has generally been good. I think he now understands how serious it is. I think he's now trying to act. Well this is going to be a test of whether he actually follows through on it.
MCLAREN: Okay. Finally, we talk a lot about political leadership, but in this space, it's correct to also talk about religious leadership. Have we heard enough from leading Muslim Imams in Australia about what's been happening the last 15 months within Australia? A lot of people talking about what's happening in the Middle East. I understand that, but there's no excuse for targeting someone who happens to be Jewish, who might be a very left-wing Jew who would never support Benjamin Netanyahu; in fact, never been to Israel in their life. I mean, that's just a criminal act. That's just racism. So, have we heard enough from our religious leaders here, particularly our Imams, speaking to their community about some of the attitudes that are prevailing?
PATERSON: There has been some great moral leadership. I particularly want to recognise and call out the leadership of the Hindus in Australia, who have been really vocal, particularly in recent months, and Catholics and other Christian leaders have been very outspoken. But one of the most heartbreaking stories I've heard since the 7th October is the Rabbis who, after the Christchurch massacre in New Zealand, reached out to the Australian Muslim community to express their support and their solidarity and worked very closely with Imams to say that this is totally unacceptable. Those same Rabbis who did that tell me that there's been nothing but silence, that those calls have not been reciprocated, that after the 7th October, Muslim leaders in Australia and Imams have not shown that same generosity and care towards the Jewish community. And I think that is heartbreaking and very disappointing.
MCLAREN: Good to speak. We will speak frequently throughout this year. It's an election year, as you know. Thank you for your time, James. Appreciate it.
PATERSON: Thank you, Michael.
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