February 20, 2025
MARK LEVY: Well, Australia's top spy boss, ASIO Director-General Mike Burgess, has outlined serious and growing threats to our national security. Last night at the 2025 Annual Threat Assessment, Mr. Burgess revealed that foreign actors are relentlessly seeking intelligence on our military capabilities, particularly in light of the high stakes AUKUS pact. Defence personnel are being targeted both online and in person, with some even receiving gifts embedded with hidden surveillance devices. I want to play a little of what the ASIO Director-General had to say because, as I said off the top of the program, there's no sugarcoating these warnings from the Director-General, Mr. Burgess.
[CLIP START]
MIKE BURGESS: Australia has entered a period of strategic surprise and security fragility. Defence personnel are being targeted in-person and online. Some were recently given gifts by their international counterparts. The presents contained concealed surveillance devices.
[CLIP END]
LEVY: Well, alarmingly, these threats aren't just coming from adversaries. We're being watched by nations we consider friends. Add to this an increasingly volatile global landscape, from Russian intelligence operations to rising politically motivated violence, and Australia's security has never faced such multifaceted dangers. So to unpack what this means for our nation, I'm joined by the very impressive Shadow Home Affairs Minister, James Paterson. And he joins me on the line right now. Senator, good morning to you.
JAMES PATERSON: Thanks for having me, Mark.
LEVY: Well mate, I don't want to alarm people, but how concerned should Australians be given what Mr. Burgess said last night?
PATERSON: I think we should be very concerned because even by the standards of the Director-General of ASIO in his annual threat assessment, this was a particularly bleak and sobering assessment. I mean, we could pick any one of those multiple issues you just alluded to. One, the potential attempted harm of an Australian citizen on Australian soil or luring Australians overseas to kill them by foreign powers. Two, the observation that the antisemitism crisis in our country hasn't even plateaued, let alone peaked. Three, the attempted foreign interference that's likely in the upcoming federal election. Or four, the attempted cultivation and recruitment of defence officials by foreign spies to steal our military secrets.
LEVY: So the thing that really concerns me, Senator, is if this is what Mr. Burgess is saying publicly, imagine what he's not telling us.
PATERSON: Well, the good thing about these annual threat assessments that Mike Burgess has pioneered is that he takes the public into his confidence as much as he's able to within the constraints of his role. So without compromising sources or methods, he reveals what ASIO intelligence has collected and what it reveals about our security environment. And it's a very important conversation with the Australian public about just how serious the threats to our democracy are and the response that is required to combat that, the support that's necessary for our intelligence and security agencies and law enforcement, the strong laws that we need. But also the strong political leadership we need to stand up for our country and defend our interests.
LEVY: What nation states are behind this behaviour? Do you have any idea?
PATERSON: I've got a fair idea. It's a pretty short, short list, but if the ASIO Director-General is not going to disclose them. It's not my role to disclose them on his behalf. But let me put it this way; I don't think many Australians would be surprised to learn the identities of the countries that are the principal sources of foreign interference or espionage or cyber attacks in Australia.
LEVY: You're a lot closer to all of this than I am, and you're obviously involved in briefings and you're aware of how this all works. I said, off the top of the program, that I have full faith in our intelligence agencies, and I have full faith in the relevant authorities, be it the New South Wales Police or the Australian Federal Police. Do you, Mr. Paterson?
PATERSON: Yes, I have total faith in our police, in our law enforcement, in our intelligence and security agencies. They are diligent, they are professional. They are patriotic. I don't think they've always had the political leadership that they need or the political support that they need. And I think particularly in relation to antisemitism since the 7th of October, that absence of political leadership has caused real problems. We should have had a much stronger response much earlier to this crisis and perhaps it would not have escalated as badly as it had if that was the case.
LEVY: That was the other big thing I took from Mr. Burgess's observations last night because it seems to me, as somebody who's been covering these antisemitic attacks, it seems like they've plateaued if you like. We haven't been reporting on as many lately because police are investigating. There's been strike forces set up to catch some of these domestic terrorists, as I call them. But what Mr. Burgess said last night is that it hasn't plateaued yet. In fact, it's probably going to get even worse.
PATERSON: I think he's right to say that, and he wouldn't have said it lightly, it would be based on his intelligence holdings and an assessment of that. And I think we should be concerned about the risk of ongoing attacks because the perpetrators responsible for some of the worst attacks we have seen, including the Adass Israel firebombing in Melbourne, the firebombing of the childcare centre in Sydney and other very serious attacks, still have not been apprehended, still have not been charged, still have not been convicted of their offences. And that means that they're at large and that they could engage in further attacks like this. And it also means that others who are contemplating attacks like this may not fear the consequences. We must ensure that they understand that if they do this, they will be caught and they will be severely punished.
LEVY: Obviously, when you hear these warnings from ASIO and from our top spy, you think to yourself, Geez, we need to be vigilant. Again, I don't want to alarm people, but you also need to highlight what's being done from a government perspective to counter some of these threats. What is being done, Senator, in relation to what Mr. Burgess said last night?
PATERSON: Well, the short answer is not enough. And in some cases we've taken some really unwise backward steps. And I think at the top of that list was the decision of the Prime Minister to dismantle the Home Affairs portfolio after the last election. That is something that the Labor Party never told the Australian people about before the election and has seriously hampered our national security policy and operations apparatus. We now have a Minister for Home Affairs in name only because Tony Burke doesn't have any operational law enforcement or intelligence agencies under his remit. He's lost ASIO, he's lost the Federal Police. He's lost the financial crimes regulator AUSTRAC. He's lost the criminal intelligence commission, and yet he's responsible for national security policy and operations. He's the weakest Home Affairs minister we've had in our history and it doesn't make Australia safe.
LEVY: And this is going to change if the Coalition is to win the election. I think I'm right in saying Mr. Dutton has made it clear that that will be changing. Everything will be brought back under the Home Affairs portfolio. Is that right?
PATERSON: You are right in saying that. We think it's critically important that all of our law enforcement, intelligence and security agencies at the Commonwealth level work together under one roof, reporting to one minister and have very clear expectations made to them about what we expect them to focus on and to prioritise so that we can get on top of this domestic antisemitic terror crisis that we have and all the other security and community safety crises that we've seen on this government's watch.
LEVY: Couple of quick ones, Senator, before you go. How concerned are you about these Chinese warships that are off the coast of Sydney at the moment?
PATERSON: I am concerned. What they're doing is lawful, but it's very unusual, and I think it's incumbent on the Prime Minister to stand up today and to share what he can about what we know about the plans and intentions of this People's Liberation Army-Navy expeditionary force, and what the Australian government is doing in response to that. It hardly seems like a friendly gesture and I think we have to understand what their motivations are.
LEVY: And I'd love for you to comment on the comments today from Donald Trump. He's labelled Volodymyr Zelenskyy a dictator. He says Ukraine started the war with Russia. Given Australia's been very supportive of Ukraine, where do you stand on it?
PATERSON: Well, that's not my view. President Zelenskyy is the legitimately, democratically elected leader of Ukraine. It is not unusual that Ukraine has not had elections while they are suffering an invasion from Russia. The United Kingdom during World War Two did not hold an election between 1935 and 1945, and they were never occupied by Nazi Germany. So that's not unusual at all. And it is very clear to me that it was Russia that is responsible for the initiation of this conflict. It was Russia that invaded, and it is Vladimir Putin that needs the decease from this attack on his neighbour. And Australia has a very clear interest in supporting the Ukrainians as long as they wish to continue resisting this invasion. It would be disastrous for our national interest if Russia were to succeed in this quest.
LEVY: All right. Well, Senator, I'll say this to you. I said at the start of the interview that and I described you as the ultra, ultra impressive. Every time I invite you onto the program and we have a chat, it usually follows with a number of emails and text messages saying, this bloke's very, very good at what he does and he's obviously going to be involved in this for a long, long time to come. We need someone like James Paterson running Home Affairs. So everything you're saying at the moment is certainly resonating with our audience. So keep up the good work, and we'll catch up soon.
PATERSON: Thank you, Mark; I appreciate it.
LEVY: That is Senator James Paterson, the shadow Home Affairs minister, and now there's someone who's prepared to stare down what's happening at the moment.
ENDS
