January 23, 2025
MARK LEVY: Well, it emerged today that two men charged by New South Wales police antisemitism task force were seemingly hired by someone going by the alias of James Bond to carry out a firebombing on a Jewish business. This is quite a development. Just days after the AFP Commissioner Reece Kershaw announced that the AFP is investigating whether foreign actors are paying local criminals to carry out some of these attacks. The Australian is reporting today that 30 year old Guy Finnegan and 37 year old Craig Bantoft exchanged messages with a person going by the name of James Bond on the encrypted app Signal before and after they set fire to the Curly Lewis Brewery in Bondi last October. It's alleged this James Bond character gave them the orders to carry out the attack and then blasted them for targeting the wrong place when they mistook the brewery for the intended target, a Jewish deli with a similar name. It's proof that at least some of these people are being contracted to carry out organised attacks. But it's also raised more questions, particularly about who's organising these kind of attacks and how far this goes. James Paterson is the shadow Minister for Home Affairs, Cyber Security and Countering Foreign Interference. And I'm delighted to say he joins me on the line right now. James, good morning to you.
JAMES PATERSON: Good to be with you.
LEVY: Well, this is an extraordinary development, what we're reading today.
PATERSON: It certainly is. And based on the descriptions that have been published in The Australian, frankly, it seems like amateur hour from the people who carried out these fire bombings and the people who recruited and paid for them. It also seems, based on the language in the text messages, that in this instance it's highly likely that everybody involved was within Australia. But it is possible that some of the actors have been paid by overseas actors. And if that is the case, we've got an even more serious crisis on our hands than we thought. And the Albanese government's passive, slow and weak response looks even worse if it is indeed the case that we have a foreign terrorist organisation or foreign government sponsoring these attacks.
LEVY: I couldn't agree more with you, Senator. The question I would pose to the Prime Minister would is whether the Australian people are entitled to more information. Look, I know we don't want to give away any of the intelligence. We don't want to interrupt and affect the investigations that are ongoing, both by the AFP and New South Wales Police. But when we're talking about foreign interference, I think we're entitled to know, aren't we, Senator?
PATERSON: I agree. I think the Albanese government needs to be much more upfront about what they know, when they first learned about it and what they are doing about it, because I don't get the impression that they're taking this as seriously as it should be, whether this is a home-grown phenomenon or something that has been imported from overseas. It's not clear that the national security committee of cabinet has met, whether our agencies are involved, or whether we're talking to our Five Eyes allies. And I don't get the sense that the Albanese government understands the crisis that this is. I mean, it took 15 months before the Prime Minister convened a national cabinet. And when he did so, the only outcome was a new database. How is a new database going to solve the problem of a domestic terrorism crisis targeting the Jewish community?
LEVY: And the other organisation that we haven't heard from is ASIO. I would have thought when we're talking about foreign interference and we're talking about whether foreign actors are behind some of these attacks, would that not fall under the umbrella of ASIO as well, Senator?
PATERSON: You're right, it is ASIO that is principally responsible for collecting intelligence about foreign interference targeting Australians. I did think it was interesting reading the article by Simon Benson in The Australian today, a very experienced and well-connected journalist, that he alluded to the fact that state police and federal police might not be on the same page on this and that there are even potentially divisions between federal agencies about whether or not this is home-grown or an overseas actor. Now, that is very serious. If it is true that there are divisions between different levels of police and our intelligence and security agencies, it is yet more reason why it was a mistake for the Albanese government to demolish the Home Affairs portfolio and send agencies into different portfolios where they're much less co-ordinated.
LEVY: What confuses me, Senator, and I don't know whether you have an opinion, but I will ask you the question anyway, the term foreign actors, why aren't we just calling it for what it is, terrorists?
PATERSON: Well, I think it is terrorism that's happening in our country. And if an overseas interest is financing terrorism, then that would be terrorism. It would either be we have a state-sponsored actor financing state-based terrorism against our country, which would amount to one of the most serious national security crises in peacetime in Australia's history. Or we have a transnational terrorist organisation who's targeting Australia. If this is indeed true, as has been claimed by the Albanese government. And it has struck incredible fear in the heart of the Jewish community in the last 24 hours. I've been contacted by Jewish community leaders who ask whether or not the Iranian government is trying to assassinate them. This is the problem with putting out partial, unconfirmed, speculative information like this, as the Albanese government has done and failed to provide reassurance and further information to the community.
LEVY: Yep. Let's canvass a few other things while we're chatting this morning, Senator. Aftab Malik is the Prime Minister's envoy for Islamophobia. He's written today that we shouldn't ignore the threat to Muslims simply because we haven't seen mosques torched or cars vandalised. He's raised concerns about a Christchurch massacre style attack. What are your thoughts on that one?
PATERSON: Well, it's certainly true that targeting a Muslim Australian is just as morally abhorrent as targeting a Jewish Australian and just as unlawful and requires just the same response when it happens. But it's also very clear that we have had far more antisemitic incidents in our country in recent times than incidents targeting Muslim Australians.
LEVY: And the other thing here, the other point we need to make to Aftab Malik is that Muslim Australians are not living in fear, whereas Jewish Australians are. That's the difference.
PATERSON: Well, thank God no one has tried to burn down a mosque in this country in recent times. But people are burning down synagogues. People are targeting Jewish owned businesses. People are targeting the cars and homes that belong to Jewish Australians. And if it ever is the case that they're targeting Muslim Australians in that same way, I'll be the first and the loudest to call it out and to demand a strong response to it. But for an Albanese government political appointee to try and downplay the seriousness of the antisemitic domestic terrorism crisis we have, I think is a travesty. And I think Tony Burke, the Minister for Home Affairs, should explain whether he agrees with the hand-picked Islamophobia Commissioner that antisemitism and Islamophobia are equally serious problems in our country right now.
LEVY: You spoke there about Tony Burke. Peter Dutton has vowed to restore the Home Affairs portfolio, the super portfolio, if elected. So that would bring the AFP and ASIO, an organisation we just referred to, under the same banner. What sort of an effect would that have on investigations like the ones we're seeing at the moment?
PATERSON: Well, right now Tony Burke is the weakest Home Affairs Minister the Australian government has ever had because he doesn't have any operational national security agencies in his portfolio. He doesn't have the Federal Police, he doesn't have ASIO. He doesn't have the financial crimes regulator AUSTRAC or the criminal intelligence commission. He's a Minister without any power at all, and yet he's theoretically responsible for counter-terrorism policy and operations. What we need is all our key law enforcement and intelligence agencies operating together, under one roof, reporting to one minister, who is accountable for their outcomes. But right now, under the Albanese government, we don't have that.
LEVY: It's interesting you say that. I mean, we had a national cabinet meeting, what, two days ago? Reluctantly the Prime Minister was dragged there kicking and screaming. 15 months. We waited for it. As you pointed out, the best they could do was come up with a national database. And a lot of my listeners came back to me saying, a national database, Really? That's the best we can do in response to what we're seeing across Australia at the moment. Were you of the same opinion, Senator?
PATERSON: Well, that's exactly right, Mark. Where was the action coming out of national cabinet? Where was the coordination of state and federal police and other authorities? Where were the mandatory minimum sentences that would have sent a strong message to the people responsible for these terror attacks that they would pay a price for their behaviour? It's my understanding that the Tasmanian government and perhaps others advocated for that in the meeting, but it was not agreed. So why does the Prime Minister think that mandatory minimum sentences are not enough? Does he think it's adequate that someone can be jailed for no time at all following these attacks? Why doesn't he think six years is an appropriate penalty for a terror attack, at least?
LEVY: Before you go, Senator. As somebody who sits in the chamber with Lidia Thorpe. I'd be interested in your thoughts on what she said on this podcast, in which she's referred to Mr. Dutton as being a racist and violent and attacked him over his policing in Queensland. Do you just roll your eyes when you hear the carry on and the commentary from someone like Senator Thorpe?
PATERSON: I do roll my eyes because it's getting pretty tiresome and it is attention seeking behaviour from someone who's got no prospect of being re-elected. But it is another reminder of why Australians have to be very careful with their votes, particularly in the Senate. She stood as a Greens candidate at the last election, was elected to a six year term on their banner and then quickly left the party and has become even more extreme than the Greens. And that takes a fair bit of effort. I mean, the truth is political parties like the Greens do not put the effort into vetting their candidates to make sure they're not extreme. And so if you vote for Greens at the next election, you do risk more Lidia Thorpes in the Senate. The only safe choice in the Senate is a vote for your Coalition Senate ticket.
LEVY: All right. Well, James, keep fighting the good fight. You're one of those speaking a lot of sense when it comes to national security and some of these issues we're facing. And I'm sure we'll catch up again soon. Thanks for joining us.
PATERSON: Thanks for having me.
ENDS
