March 19, 2024
RAY HADLEY: James Paterson, Senator Paterson, good morning to you.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning Ray.
HADLEY: It's most enlightening to think that back in September 2001, 23 years ago, probably one of our most remarkable prime Minister, John Howard, said, no, this is really important. I need to have these people in the meeting. And now in 2024, it's not so important.
PATERSON: Ray, it sounds like your listener is very well informed and I confess, 2001 National Security Committee of cabinet meetings are well before my time. But it is very worrying that the Albanese government doesn't think it needs the most up to date, in-person, expert advice on national security from ASIS, which is our principal foreign intelligence collection agency, human intelligence collection agency, and ASIO, which is our pre-eminent domestic security collection agency. The whole point of having them in the room is that you don't always know when they're going to have something of value or insights to add, and you have them there so that they can speak up and convey their expertise when needed. Now they're not in the room. You're making decisions uninformed with the best advice that you should be having to make critical decisions in national security. And, I guess in a way, this doesn't come as a surprise. I mean, this has been a government which has been consistently weak and incompetent on national security. And this is perhaps one of the reasons why.
HADLEY: Well, maybe, the fact that the Director General of ASIO, Mike Burgess, said what he said and then revealed a bit more in a 60 Minutes interview about, who he was talking about, and that, we believe, is the Chinese government trying to infiltrate via a former politician. We don't know if Labor or Liberal, but most likely a Labor politician. And all of a sudden that created waves that didn't suit the Chinese, didn't suit the Prime Minister. So all of a sudden, his, Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet Secretary, Glenn Davis, decides that, they need to be removed. And Mr. Davis, while a highly credentialed university chancellor in a former life and highly distinguished person, he apparently thinks it's important that, he remove, these people from it. And of course, I note today in publications, he was part of the Victorian government's Daniel Andrews plan for Belt and Road, which Scott Morrison, of course, tore apart. But it would indicate that he's, I guess, Lynn Davis, well, a person who has a sympathetic ear when it comes to the Chinese politicians.
PATERSON: I really hope that is not the reason why the Director General of ASIO appears to have been removed from the National Security Committee of cabinet and the government should step up today and explain. Has this happened? When did it happen? Why did that happen? And they should promise to reverse it and put them back on the committee. Because it's true, sometimes the Director Generals of our intelligence agencies have unwelcome news. But it's that unwelcome news that the Prime Minister and his cabinet colleagues need to hear the most. Because, frankly, we are operating in a dangerous world. There are unpleasant people out there. They are trying to do us harm, whether it's foreign spies or wannabe terrorists. And you have to be there to listen to them and to hear it so you can act on it and protect the Australian people.
HADLEY: Well, at the end of the day, I mean, surely to goodness, what is revealed by the Director Generals, will not be published if it's done, you know, unless there's a leak inside cabinet or, you know, the Prime Minister's office is leaking. So what was the disadvantage of having them there as opposed to the advantage of having them?
PATERSON: I cannot think of one reason why you would not want them in the room. I cannot think of one detriment that occurs from having them in the room. And frankly, because this Prime Minister has the worst instincts on national security, because he has no interest in national security or foreign policy or defence policy, he, more than anyone else, needs to have them in the room to provide their advice so that he can hear it. Because, frankly, left to his own devices, he's not going to make the right decisions when it comes to national security. He's demonstrated that time and time again.
HADLEY: But Mr. Davis wouldn't do this unilaterally. He'd have to do it with the permission of the Prime Minister surely, even though he's the Head of Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet.
PATERSON: Absolutely right Ray, the secretary of PM&C does nothing without the approval of the Prime Minister. And at the first National Security Committee meeting after this decision was made, the Prime Minister would have noticed that there was a couple of people less in the room than is normally in the room, and he could have and should have corrected it and said, where is my Director-Generals of ASIO and ASIS? Why aren't they in the room? Get them back in here.
HADLEY: Okay. Don Farrell is a fellow promoted beyond station in life, in my opinion, to the Senate and no doubt, you've heard about what happened in relation to a question from your colleague Claire Chandler let's have a listen.
[CLIP] SENATOR CLAIRE CHANDLER: Minister why is the Albanese Labor government acting in opposition to the United States, our most trusted international partner, who were await, the outcomes of the investigation into UNRWA and in the interim, is pursuing alternate means of delivering more humanitarian assistance.
[CLIP] SENATOR DON FARRELL: Well I take issue with your first statement there. I'm not sure that United States is our most trusted ally, I would have said New Zealand.
HADLEY: Does this dope realise the damage he does to us internationally was such a comment, do you think?
PATERSON: Well, it was extraordinary on a number of levels Ray. I mean, that was a serious question about a serious issue, which is the risk of Australian taxpayer funds going to UNRWA, which we now know there has been well documented evidence has employed terrorists. And instead of dealing with the substance of that, he made this bizarre observation about America not being a trusted or closest ally, in total contravention of 70 years of Australian foreign policy. You know, since the ANZUS treaty between Australia and the United States, which, by the way, New Zealand left. We love them, but they are not our closest military or intelligence ally. I mean, it was a grossly irresponsible thing for him to say, but let's remember, this is supposed to be a hard man of the right of the Labor Party, who you would think would have more sensible views on foreign policy. He's espousing an opinion that would be more at home in the Green Party room, let alone the Labor Party room. Then he's a minister in the Foreign Affairs and Trade portfolio. And he was the acting leader of the government in the Senate, replacing Penny Wong. I mean, I'm not sure Penny Wong is ever going to allow Don Farrell to step in and represent her in the Senate ever again.
HADLEY: Well, it's not the first time he didn't know what he was talking about. We got to March last year.
[CLIP] FARRELL: Look, I have to say, I don't follow power prices as closely to be able to answer, the, the, the, the, the, the question.
HADLEY: I can only conclude from that his wife must pay the bills.
PATERSON: That's right Ray. And I mean, the real the question is, why would you put someone like Don Farrell in charge at a time like this? I mean, we have the Chinese foreign minister visiting our country this week. Is that why he made this comment? To try and please our guest? Is it because he's so desperate to get the trade sanctions lifted on Australian industry that he'll say anything to please our Chinese friends? I mean, I'm really concerned about this and I'm concerned that the Albanese government thinks it's fine to leave someone like him in charge at a time like this.
HADLEY: I agree, now, just finally, one of my listeners again, has suggested I send this note to Don. Dear Don, during the battle of the Coral Sea. May 4th to the 8th, 1942, 686 U.S. soldiers lost their lives defending ultimately Australia. During the Pacific War, which spanned from December 8th 1941, September 2nd 1945, 12,520 of the U.S. forces 35% of their Pacific forces died defending Australia. Another 36,361 Americans were wounded in the Pacific War. And Don, they're not our most trusted ally if the US isn't trusted we are stuffed Don, says Ken from Normanhurst in Sydney. I think Ken has encapsulated what most people would think in relation to Senator Farrell.
PATERSON: Perfectly encapsulated. Couldn't have said it better. I mean, Australia would not be a sovereign liberal democracy today if it wasn't for the blood and treasure that Americans sacrificed in World War II to defend us. We have a lot to thank for them for. They are our most trusted ally, they are our closest ally. And by the way, they are giving us their most sensitive military secrets as part of the AUKUS agreement. New Zealand, as much as we love them, they're not part of AUKUS, maybe they will be one day. But we're going to get nuclear submarines from the United States. That shows their trust in us. And it is a terrible thing that a senior minister in the Albanese government has publicly questioned whether we should trust them.
HADLEY: Just on another matter, I know you were in Israel last week seeing where the terror attack happened on October 7th. The way you feel about things having returned from there?
PATERSON: It was a deeply moving experience Ray. I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what happened on the 7th of October before I went, I'd seen that uncensored 47 minute video by the IDF. But I tell you, going there and seeing the places in person, really shocked me to my core and really rammed home for me how disappointing it was that the Foreign Minister went all that way and failed to spend the extra hour to go south to visit the sites. And the fact that our Prime Minister has failed to visit, although almost every other world leader has, all our allies have, that really hurt the people of Israel. And it's really hurt the Jewish community here in Australia. They feel abandoned by their government at a time of the highest number of anti-Semitic incidents in our history. This government is just missing in action when it comes to standing behind a fellow democracy. And I think that reflects terribly on them.
HADLEY: Okay. And just finally, I've spoken this morning about tick tock. I'm not a person on Tik Tok. But we've got a local government minister in the state of New South Wales, Ron Hoenig, who's one of the, I guess, elder statesmen in the Labor government. That's not being critical, I'm probably a bit older than him, but he's trying to be hip and in tune with younger people and has gone on TikTok, despite the fact that the premier of New South Wales says he'd prefer in terms of the parliamentary phones to avoid TikTok. But Ron Hoenig seems to think that if he can get there with his rather brightly beetroot coloured hair, and dress in colourful clothes, he will be somehow relevant to younger people. Does he understand the dangers of TikTok, do you think, or do, people choose to ignore that it's a company run by the Chinese communist government?
PATERSON: Well, he can't possibly understand it because the federal government's advice on this is very clear. If you are to use TikTok, it must be on a completely separate device. It cannot be on a device that has any work material on it. It is no defence to say I only have my parliamentary, not ministerial emails on that device. And frankly, on another level, right. I think there's nothing sadder than an old politician dancing on TikTok to try and get in with the youth of today. I mean, honestly, have some self-respect.
HADLEY: Well, there's only one thing sadder, an old broadcaster doing the same thing, and I won't be doing it, okay.
PATERSON: Thanks Ray.
HADLEY: Thanks James. All the best.
ENDS
