October 22, 2024
RAY HADLEY: We had arranged for Senator James Paterson, the shadow Minister for Home Affairs and Cyber Security to have a yarn with us about a whole range of issues. It was to be mainly about a Coalition promise, they will provide 8.5 million to support the renovation and expansion of the Sydney Jewish Museum, matching what Chris Minns' government has done. 8.5 million committed by the New South Wales state government. But for James Paterson, things have taken an interesting twist in the last 24 hours. Good morning, Senator.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning. Good to be here.
HADLEY: Yeah, it's nice of you to make yourself available and thank you for the other times you make yourself available. But Lidia Thorpe, it's been basically for the last 2.25 hours, all people want to talk about the best the Prime Minister could come up with yesterday, talking to international media was, it was disrespectful.
PATERSON: It was a bit more than disrespectful. It was outrageous behaviour by Senator Thorpe, who is entitled to her views, but frankly has a lot of other ways to get them across if she chooses to. She's a Senator. She can give a speech in the chamber about the monarchy, if that's what she wants to do. She can come on a radio program like yours and talk about it. She can go on TV. She can tweet up a storm. She can write an article. She does not need to disrupt what was a very classy, very warm, very friendly speech by our visiting monarch.
HADLEY: Well, most people are agreeing with what I said this morning, my listeners. It was a Kath and Kim moment. Look at me, look at me, look at me. And that's the point made by Peter Dutton. That it's all about her and Tony Abbott today said the same thing, it's about being an exhibitionist.
PATERSON: It's always about Lidia and no one else is anywhere near as important as her and no one else has any other kind of perspective that could be anywhere near as worthy as hers. And it's indulgent, and I think it's childish and it doesn't reflect well on her. It also doesn't reflect on the Greens who put her into the Parliament. She's left the Greens now because even she was too extreme for them. But they chose her. They put her there, and they have saddled the Parliament of Australia with her for six years.
HADLEY: She's there until 2028, having been elected in 2022. They haven't said anything. Adam Bandt has said nothing about it. There's been no criticism of her. So you might think that, well, if they're not criticising her, they might at least agree with her.
PATERSON: Don't hold your breath, Ray. I don't count on them to say anything at all in defence of our country or our system of government.
HADLEY: Well, we would understand why they don't, because of the lunacy they provide in Parliament. But what about the Prime Minister saying one word disrespectful? I mean, that in itself seems what's he got to be worried about Lidia Thorpe? Why would he be worried about offending her?
PATERSON: There's no good reason why he should be worried about that. The only reason why he's responded the way he has is because of the way he responds and everything. He's a weak person and he fails to lead, and he fails to stand up at moments like these, he fails to grasp the significance and the seriousness of them, and he thinks he can just palm it off with a cheap comment.
HADLEY: The people who were there yesterday, were you there?
PATERSON: Yeah, I was.
HADLEY: Okay. One of the points made by my staff this morning was and given it was Australia and given it was, you know, even though it may have been in a dignified setting, they were amazed that someone didn't yell out, oh for God's sake, shut up.
PATERSON: It was tempting. It probably didn't come across in the video. There was a bit of a groan when we saw her step out into the aisle and start walking towards the king and shouting. We all knew it was coming. There was no other reason for her to be there except to pull a stunt. And frankly, I'm just pleased she didn't do it straight to his face. I'm pleased it wasn't that up close and personal. It was bad, but it could have been worse.
HADLEY: And the provision for her getting there, I've said to people this morning, I don't think there is a provision to stop someone who's in parliament entering parliament or the Great Hall.
PATERSON: No, there certainly isn't. And in fact, a senator and member has parliamentary privilege, which means they cannot be obstructed from entering the parliament. Otherwise it's a breach of parliamentary privilege, which is actually a serious crime. And so no security, no police can obstruct her in her duties.
HADLEY: So in other words, come what may, they knew what was coming, she knew what was coming, but there was nothing to do to prevent it.
PATERSON: No. The only real punishment available is she could be censured by the Senate. But that's just a symbolic thing. It doesn't carry any real weight, and I think she would probably wear it as a badge of honour. The really only consequence for her behaviour is an electoral consequence. So it's up to the people of Victoria to come to a different judgement on her than they did last time.
HADLEY: Well, you can imagine both Senator Payment and her when they go to the polls next time without the support of either Labor or the Greens would be struggling to get the number.
PATERSON: Totally, I mean, they were completely anonymous before they were elected to Parliament, like most politicians and most senators are. None of us would be elected without the endorsement of our parties. Even if they start their own parties as Senator Payman has, I think they'll really struggle without the backing of a major party.
HADLEY: People have said, why can't she be removed? Well, I've gone through this prior to you coming on there and you'd be well aware of it. We had a Parliamentary Privilege Act in 1987 because it had been used back in 1920 with a Labor member, Hugh Mahon, who gave a speech publicly criticising the actions of the British in Ireland, expressing support for an Australian republic even back then, well before 1999 and it was found that it could be open to abuse. And so in 87 they said Section eight, the House does not have the power to expel a member from the membership of a house. This means that currently neither house of the Commonwealth, the upper or the lower House, the Senate or the lower House has the power to expel one of its members. So she's there until 2028.
PATERSON: And as frustrating as it is in her case, I actually think that's a very important principle, because if you're elected to the House of Representatives or the Senate, you're accountable to the people who sent you there, not to your colleagues. I don't answer to my colleagues and nor should any other parliamentarian. We only answer to the people who sent us there.
HADLEY: Well, just on the broader issue in relation to casual vacancies being filled, and I can understand that someone passes or retires and so you replace a Liberal with a Liberal, or National with a National, Labor or a Green with whatever. But when someone, and this has happened with your own party historically, it's not just happened with the Greens at the moment and with the Labor Party, but people are perplexed that someone's elected, and we're talking here about the Upper House where you're not personally standing, you're part of a larger ticket, and then you sever your relationship with the Liberal Party, the National Party, the Greens or whatever, but you're still in Parliament and surely the goodness, as you've just said, you're only elected to the Senate because of your affiliation with one of the parties and so people can't quite understand how they can remain there for the next three and a half years in her case, without the affiliation to the party that elected her.
PATERSON: It's a totally reasonable frustration that people have. But in a way, it misunderstands our system. You are electing people. They might have a party banner, but you are voting for a person and parties aren't recognised in the Australian Constitution. It is an individual member of Parliament who you're putting your faith in and a party has lent them their endorsement and basically said, we vouch for this person, they'll be good, they'll stick to these values. And so actually I think the obligation is on parties to be more careful in the people that we put forward to the parliament who don't behave like this.
HADLEY: Well, let's look at the Greens first in Lidia Thorpe. She's elevated to the lower house in Victoria. She lasts one year and gets the punt at the next election. And then she's seized upon as a indigenous female from Victoria. So the Greens say, well that fits our bill. And then the same thing with Labor and Senator Payman. She's a young Muslim woman and so I guess the powerbrokers of the Labor Party say, well, this fits in very well with us, a Muslim and a woman, young. Let's go for her.
PATERSON: I think this is the cancer of identity politics which is affecting our country and many other Western countries around the world, which is we decide that the most important characteristics about someone are their sexuality or their gender or their religion or some other characteristic instead of their values and their qualities and how they behave. And I think it's a mistake. And it's turned out to be in these cases.
HADLEY: You and I have spoken previously about anti-Semitism, and I've been around a lot longer than you on this earth. And in my adult life, I've never seen the degree of anti-Semitism we've seen in the last 13 months. I've never seen it before, never seen it before. Jewish Australians have been an important part of our community ever since time began, as far as white settlement is concerned. And I just don't understand. The urgency of young people to all of a sudden jump on that extreme left bandwagon or sometimes the extreme right bandwagon. But in the case of university students, the extreme left bandwagon, that see all the evils in the world being directed towards Jewish people and without any understanding of the 6 million, put to death in concentration camps through World War Two.
PATERSON: Well, I think that's the key, Ray. It's from a basis of ignorance. They start not knowing anything about it. They get infected by hate on social media or in their communities or in their schools. And from that basis of ignorance, it's very easy to jump to awful conclusions. And that's why the initiative that Peter announced today is so important, that $8.5 million commitment to the Jewish Museum here in Sydney to educate people about the Holocaust, yes. But also about the 200 years of contribution of the Jewish community to our country, about the hundreds of Jews who served in World War One and World War Two for our country and other conflicts since, about their contribution to business and the arts, and philanthropy, and culture, and every other aspect of our life.
HADLEY: The counter to that at the moment, and we'll get to exactly what that will mean for the Jewish community and the non-Jewish community who can go down to the museum. But you see, it's being led by the Labor Government. Well, whenever you've got Penny Wong there in charge of Foreign Affairs being sort of, a little sympathetic to the Jewish, but really being pro-Palestinian or pro-Hamas because if you're pro-Palestinian, it's actually the government of Gaza that's what it is, a terrorist organisation. And if you allow the speeches like I've played here and you've probably heard that young woman speaking over the course of the weekend, inciting people to celebrate the life of a man who's been killed because he's the one that the Israelis have taken out because of what he did on October 7th, killing 1200 people.
PATERSON: Exactly right. And the problem with that foreign policy since the 7th of October is that Penny Wong and Anthony Albanese have shifted it away from decades of bipartisanship, away from our allies and likeminded partners like United States, to now be in a position that we're going to pre-emptively recognise a Palestinian state prior to any peace negotiations, before any agreement between the Palestinians and the Israelis. And Hamas and their supporters will see that as a victory. They will say that what they started on the 7th of October has paid off when strong supporters of Israel, traditionally like Australia, have walked away from Israel, abandoned them at the United Nations and elsewhere.
HADLEY: Penny Wong keeps talking about a two state solution. The only way there'll be a two state solution is if the executive government, you've got Hamas in Gaza. You've got in southern Lebanon Hezbollah. The only way there'll be a two state solution would be that if the terrorists control the executive government, as they do in Gaza at the moment.
PATERSON: A terrorist organisation, listed in Australia as a terrorist organisation, is utterly incompatible to a two state solution. Only the defeat of Hamas and Hezbollah will facilitate peace in the region. And the government explicitly acknowledges this. When they say that Hamas has no role in the future governance of Gaza. But they say at the same time months ago that there should have been an immediate cease fire which would have led Yahya Sinwar to have survived, it would have led to Hamas taking control of Gaza again, as they have after previous conflicts. How would we be better off? How would Israel and the world be better off if that had happened?
HADLEY: What's your gut feeling going into sometime after February next year, a federal election? You'd like to think that Peter Dutton has really done the almost impossible, the almost impossible given what happened at the last federal election. But there's this grave fear. I sat in this same chair all those years ago listening to Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott support Julia Gillard. And I have to say it was probably the worst par political I've ever seen in existence with a dolt, a complete and utter dolt in Oakeshott with that long, dreadful speech and Tony Windsor, who thankfully both are gone from politics now supporting Julia Gillard to be Prime Minister. And I have a feeling that sometime after the election I'll be listening to the Prime Minister gain the support of the Greens and some sort of minority government and we'll have a reflection federally of what we have in Canberra where there's been 23 years of Labor-Green government and 27 by the time of this term is over.
PATERSON: Well I think next election is going to be very competitive and actually I think it's now the case, given the momentum that we have and what the polling is showing, that the only people capable of forming a majority government is Peter Dutton and the Liberal and National parties. You're going to be choosing at the next election between a minority Labor government with the Greens or a majority Liberal and National government. And what is better for our country, particularly at a time of crisis, a weak government dependent on extremists or a strong government that can govern for all Australians?
HADLEY: Look, I know you won't buy into what happens in New South Wales, but we had by-elections in New South Wales on Saturday, and two went the way they should have gone. Epping and Hornsby went to the Liberals. Pittwater, which has been in past a Liberal stronghold, both state and federally, that that Northern Beaches area it is an affluent area. But I made the point earlier and there's a TikTok with Jacqui Scruby and Georgia Ryburn dancing together. And some of your members from the right have contacted me this morning and saying what have we come to? And what I said was that unfortunately in New South Wales at the moment, you had a choice in Pittwater of a Teal candidate or a Teal-Liberal candidate. And I think my perception is as a New South Welshman, that under Mark Speakman and under the current regime with Don Harwin thankfully being outed by the Federal Liberal Party saying you don't know what you're doing, get going, we'll run the place. That we have this preoccupation with people in New South Wales from Liberal politics, abandoning conservative values and drifting further and further to the Matt Kean Liberal which almost verges, as we now know as Labor. Labor Left actually. I mean he's been given a job by the Labor government federally because he's so close to their ideals that he's not a problem having a former Liberal minister, a former Liberal Treasurer as part of their climate change policy. Yeah.
PATERSON: And look, some of my New South Wales state Liberal colleagues like to weigh in on federal politics and like to give us free public advice, Matt Kean among them. I won't commit the same offence they have. It's not my job to advise them. They can chart their own way out of the position they're in. The only thing I would say is I'm not surprised by the result in Pittwater given what our previous candidate is accused of.
HADLEY: I understand that played a role in it.
PATERSON: If I was voter in Pittwater, I'd be pretty cranky too.
HADLEY: But you know, to counter that, Gareth Ward was expelled from the Liberal Party and went to the election as an independent and won Kiama. So, you know, it is not without, the Liberal Party wasn't punished per say, for the alleged sins of that man, whereas in the other electorate, but I just think that at the end of the day, I don't know Georgia Ryburn or Jacqui Scruby and she might be the best Teal we've ever had, which will be pretty easy. But I mean, at the end of the day, I don't think the electorate had a choice. I really don't think, and under Mark Speakman's leadership. I'm not putting words in your mouth, but we don't have a conservative voice there. I mean, he was still championing the Don Harwin cause when Dutton had to intervene and says Don's not much good, and he was saying, oh I don't see what he's done wrong. I mean, they didn't have local government candidates in Pittwater and many other places because of his stupidity. Anyway, I won't dwell on that. Let's go back to what the announcement was originally about 20 minutes ago. It's about the $8.5 million for the Jewish Museum now. Thankfully, Chris Minns has weighed in the same amount. So we're talking $17 million. It'll be a new centre of Jewish Life and Tolerance and it will welcome in the next, I guess, eight years, twice as many visitors because of the size of the museum. And that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing.
PATERSON: Exactly right. And one of the really important programs they have is bringing young people and students in to the museum to educate them about the Holocaust and about the contribution of Jewish Australians to our country, how they've enriched our country. And you're right to give credit to the New South Wales Premier for his commitment. We've made a commitment, but obviously we're not in government. It is contingent on us winning the next election I would actually hope that Anthony Albanese would make this bipartisan, would match this commitment, would come forward so that either way this museum gets funded and gets built because our country needs it. This shouldn't be a partisan issue.
HADLEY: The only problem with announcement by Anthony Albanese once he announced some sort of ombudsman for the Jewish community, he almost immediately announced an ombudsman for the Islamic community. So I think if he ends up giving $8.5 million or promising to give $8.5 million, there'll be another $8.5 million for a mosque somewhere.
PATERSON: This has been a problem since the 7th October, this false equivalence that the trauma that the Jewish community feels cannot be spoken about by the prime minister in isolation. It always has to be spoken about in comparison to trauma that other communities feel, including the Muslim community. We should call out Islamophobia if and when it arises. And we should call out anti-Semitism if and when it arises. And it's very clear in our country the much larger problem we have is anti-Semitism. It is utterly rife. As you say, worse than you've seen in your lifetime. Holocaust survivors in their 90s have told me it's the worst they've ever seen in their lifetime, and they never thought they would experience this in Australia.
HADLEY: Okay, good to talk to you as always, good to seek your counsel and we'll talk again soon.
PATERSON: Thanks Ray.
ENDS
