November 5, 2024
GARY ADSHEAD: So let's have a chat about this situation with electric vehicles from China. Senator James Paterson is the Shadow Minister for Home Affairs and joins us on the line. Thanks for your time, James.
JAMES PATERSON: Good to be with you, Gary.
ADSHEAD: All right. Now look, you've got concerns about the fact that there are enough security issues around electric vehicles from China that Australia could become a dumping ground. But now that's being highlighted by the fact that a federal government minister and none other than the Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke, has bought an electric vehicle from China and because of that it's had to have security clearance. Is that right?
PATERSON: That's basically it. So yesterday in Senate Estimates, I started by asking Department of Home Affairs officials what the national and cyber security risks of internet connected electric vehicles are, particularly when they come from a country like China. And they explained to me that they could listen to the occupants of the car and any conversations they could have. They could track the movements of the driver throughout a city or our states. That they could compromise any devices connected into the car, like your phone. And that they could transmit any video recorded outside the car of the surrounds back to the ultimate owner and controller of the company, including if that was in China. And then I said, is it true that the Minister for Home Affairs and Cyber Security, who you have briefed on this matter multiple times, also drives a Chinese electric vehicle? And they looked at their shoes and they looked at the roof and eventually they finally admitted, yes, the Minister for Home Affairs and Cyber Security is driving around in what could be a Chinese listening device.
ADSHEAD: So did they have to give you any explanation as to whether that car needed to be checked out by security services or whether the minister's now under instructions about never talking in the car, for example?
PATERSON: Well, all the government was willing to say was that the minister had taken appropriate mitigations to manage the risk of driving around in this vehicle. And what that concedes is that it is a risk to be using a vehicle like this if you are a minister responsible for national security and cyber security, as Tony Burke is. But of course, the safest thing to do would be to not drive it at all, to drive a non-Chinese EV or a non connected vehicle. That would eliminate the risk. Instead of that, they're trying to manage the risk. And I think that's just incredibly reckless in the strategic environment we're in. I mean, we know that the Chinese government is Australia's number one source of espionage, number one source of foreign interference, and the number one source of state-backed cyber attacks. So given that, I think we should be taking a much more cautious approach.
ADSHEAD: I mean, to put it bluntly, there's no way that Tony Burke could take a call from the Prime Minister, could he? While he's driving around in his EV, that's what you're saying?
PATERSON: The things that our members of parliament do, particularly cabinet ministers and particularly in national security portfolios, are intensely of interest to foreign intelligence agencies, not just from China, but especially China. And they have a rapacious appetite to collect intelligence. And they're not just interested in classified information. Of course, they want to try and get access to our AUKUS secrets and other things like that. But they're also just interested in political rumour and innuendo and scuttlebutt because that's useful to build a picture for opportunities to intervene in and influence our democracy. And we shouldn't make their job any easier for them. We should make their job as hard as possible by protecting ourselves and our key ministers and this government is showing a completely reckless approach to that.
ADSHEAD: So now the sort of go forward a bit because of the security concerns that are clearly there in relation to EVs from China and we've seen what the US have done. You are saying that we could become the quote unquote dumping ground.
PATERSON: Yeah, the reason why that's a risk is that the United States has taken really decisive action. They have both put tariffs on Chinese made vehicles, and they are effectively banning all internet connected Chinese vehicles from being imported to the United States. Canada has flagged similar moves, as has the European Union. So if all of our likeminded partners take this action and we don't, then one of the only Western markets that China could continue to export to is Australia and we could become the dumping ground. So I think we do need to take some preventative steps. I am not advocating a ban or tariffs. But what we should be doing is setting very high mandatory minimum cyber security standards that all car makers would have to meet if they want to sell to Australians so that we are protected against these risks.
ADSHEAD: We've seen though, that there's been edicts around, you know, mobile phone apps that our federal pollies like yourself can't download or should definitely not be downloading. Why wouldn't we just make it a blanket ban on anyone in government having their government vehicle or otherwise an electric vehicle from China?
PATERSON: Well, it's funny you should ask that, Gary, because effectively that's already in place, although it's never been announced. The Department of Finance has a lease program for members of parliament to choose vehicles and they give you a list of pre-approved vehicles. There are no Chinese manufactured and owned electric vehicle brands on that list. There's lots of other brands you can choose from, but for example, you cannot choose a BYD. So if Tony Burke is driving a Chinese made EV and owned EV as he has now, as the government has now admitted, he must have gone outside that leasing process and procured his own vehicle from the private market, which is not recommended by the Department of Finance for members of Parliament. So effectively, no one should be driving these cars in the federal government and yet Tony Burke is.
ADSHEAD: And what paid for it himself? Just outright?
PATERSON: Well, as a member of Parliament, you either get an allowance to go towards a leased vehicle or you can elect to take that money instead and spend it yourself on your own vehicle if you want to acquire your own vehicle. And there are good reasons why they might need to do that. So that is my guess what Tony Burke is doing in this instance. But he actually hasn't stood up and explained this or answered any questions about this. He left it to the department and his other colleagues to defend his action.
ADSHEAD: So we don't know what brand he's got? So, because even a Tesla, as you know, components, etc., come from China, but we don't know what brand?
PATERSON: At least in the case of Tesla, at least it is a US owned and designed company and the software is designed in the United States. But as you say, they are manufactured in China. And the interesting thing about that is, the Chinese government has banned these EVs from their sensitive national security sites. Now, no one knows better the risks of these vehicles than China. They've banned them from their national security sites. So what should we do when they are exporting Chinese made, Chinese owned, Chinese designed, vehicles to Australia? We certainly shouldn't let the Home Affairs Minister drive one.
ADSHEAD: Alright, so where do you think this ends then, this discussion? I mean, does it really need Tony Burke to trade his Chinese made EV or is he going to have to come out and explain how he's made it safe?
PATERSON: Well, I asked Murray Watt, the minister who was representing the government at the table in Senate estimates how many other cabinet ministers were driving around Chinese EVs, and he wasn't able to answer that question. It's been taken on notice. I will look forward to getting an explanation from the government just how many ministers are doing this. Tony Burke was obviously doing it before he became the Minister for Home Affairs and Cyber Security, but he's continued to do it and I'm worried that reflects a very lax attitude towards security in the Albanese government cabinet.
ADSHEAD: Alright, well we will watch with interest. It's just fascinating that we've got to a point now where the car that you drive might be used by spies from China, but that's the real life that we're in now at the moment with the technology advances that are going on. I do appreciate you joining us today, Senator... wait actually, have you picked a horse yet, by the way? Are you guys all having to work during the Melbourne Cup today or you've got sort of half an hour break?
PATERSON: I'm a very bad Victorian. I'm stuck in Canberra. I'm in Senate estimates, I haven't followed the form guide at all, so don't take any advice for me on where to place your bets.
ADSHEAD: Well, if I just sort of go on names and occupations and I'm just going to give you trust in you, we'll take it. There you go. It's paying 71 bucks. Don't sniff at it. If you don't put any money on it, and it wins. Then that's your fault. Good luck with it.
PATERSON: Thank you.
ENDS
