June 17, 2024
GARY ADSHEAD: My next guest, James Paterson, who's the opposition's Home Affairs spokesperson. And also, of course, across cyber security issues. Good morning to you, James.
JAMES PATERSON: Good to be with you.
ADSHEAD: Hey, first up. I just want your reaction to the revelations in the past couple of days about an organisation called Hizb Ut Tahrir and how they may be operating in Australia. Should we be very concerned about it?
PATERSON: Yes we should be. It is deeply disturbing the revelations that were reported in the Sydney Morning Herald, The Age, and 60 Minutes by Nick McKenzie and his colleagues. What it shows is that this is an extremist organisation with very radical views, that is involved in the heart of the pro-Palestinian protest movement in this country, and some of the things they are accused of could be sufficient grounds to have them declared as a terrorist organisation – in particular, the promotion, fostering, encouragement and the praising of terrorist activity, which is a criteria to be listed as a terrorist organisation. So we call on the government to look very closely at whether this meets the threshold, and if so they should be listed as a terrorist organisation.
ADSHEAD: It's just worrying that, you know, they are banned in the UK, or certainly proscribed in the UK and banned in Germany, full stop. Why wouldn't we just ban them?
PATERSON: Exactly right. The United Kingdom took the decision to do so in January this year. And in the aftermath of the 7th of October, their behaviour has become much more extreme. They have been involved in glorifying and praising the activities of Hamas and what they did on the 7th of October. And they really have a very extreme ideology, which I think crosses into being a violent ideology at times, and that's why they deserve close examination under terrorist proscription, but also under a whole range of other laws,
including incitement to violence laws, using carriage services to menace and harass. And if any of these people, frankly, are non-citizens, then my view is that their visas should be cancelled and they should be sent home.
ADSHEAD: You know, that's an interesting one for the minister to consider at the time. Now, the other thing about it, and it's something that when I started looking into what McKenzie and Co had written, there they are as a registered charity under a name of Al Rashidun. And then of course Nick McKenzie spells out what that name comes from. It comes from the name of a Islamic caliphate that goes way, way back. So it just begs the question, how much of an eye is run over an organisation that wants to start a charity and get tax exempt status here?
PATERSON: I find it very difficult to understand how people of this character, can be appointed as directors for a charity and how a charity of this nature could be approved to have that tax deductible status. That's something that we should reserve for charities that are doing really important genuine humanitarian, environmental and other social work. It shouldn't be given out lightly. And a pretty thorough examination of the people involved should be required before it's given away. I'd be surprised if that's happened in this instance and I hope that the treasurer is looking at this very closely too.
ADSHEAD: Ok, as we speak, the Prime Minister and the Chinese Premier Li Qiang are holding a joint press conference making their statements. It's one of these situations, you know, we sort of play nice when we have to play nice. What would you like to see, come from these talks that are going on?
PATERSON: Look, it is a really important bilateral relationship for Australia. We all understand that. It's also a very complicated one. When your principle trading partner is also your number one source of foreign interference and espionage risk, your number one source of state backed cyber attacks and your number one source of state backed intellectual property theft. It goes without saying it's complicated, particularly when they're holding an Australian citizen effectively on death row right now, Dr Yang Hengjun. And so what I want to see is Australia stand up for ourselves in this relationship. Yes, the economic aspects of the relationship are important, but so are the security aspects and we need a Prime Minister strong enough to stand up for Australia and raise those issues robustly and clearly and directly.
ADSHEAD: As a colleague of mine, when he was hearing me talking about, a couple of pandas that, currently at the Adelaide Zoo that will be replaced by China, that my colleague glibly sort of informed me that, you know, that's two pandas, $6 billion worth of, export tariffs that they placed on our exporters in recent years. Doesn't seem like a fair deal, does it?
PATERSON: No. And what has been missed from some of the reporting is actually we pay for these pandas. It's not a charity, Adelaide Zoo actually pays about $1 million a year to rent the pandas. So it's not an act of charity like it's been portrayed as well. I think that there are important cultural aspects to this relationship. There are strong people to people links. I mean, the achievements of Chinese civilization and culture and cuisine, are wonderful and celebrated by Australians. We have 200 years of Chinese migration to this country, which has been enormously successful. But it is right now ruled by the Chinese Communist Party. They are an authoritarian superpower. They are very aggressive in our region and even in our own country. There are young Australians who are being coerced and intimidated into silence by this regime and we should not allow that to happen on our soil.
ADSHEAD: All right. Now then, James Paterson, tell me, what is Volt Typhoon.
PATERSON: Volt Typhoon is a sophisticated state backed cyber actor sponsored by the Chinese government. And its task is to go around the world to western allies like Australia, but also the United States and other Five Eyes partners, and look for and identify and take advantage of vulnerabilities in critical infrastructure. Critical infrastructures is things like power networks, water networks, gas networks, payment systems, transport networks. And the purpose of finding these vulnerabilities is to establish a dormant presence that can be activated in the future, to sabotage those networks. There is no innocent reason to do that. It is not the act of a friendly nation. And right now, our cyber spies, at the Australian Signals Directorate, are scanning our networks for this presence to try and eliminate it.
ADSHEAD: All right. So these, actors are definitely targeting the way that we live our life through the infrastructure and software programs, etcetera, that keep our infrastructure on track?
PATERSON: Exactly right. And the former secretary of Home Affairs, Michael Pezzullo, had a very evocative way of putting it the other day. He said, effectively, it's like putting dynamite under a bridge. You are really pre-positioning for future sabotage in case you want to do harm to a nation in the event of conflict, or to prevent a nation from projecting its power and it's influence into the region. And so we should regard it very seriously. We need to eliminate it, with our own technical capabilities. But we also need to raise it with our counterparts and say, you want a stable relationship with us? Well why on earth are you doing this?
ADSHEAD: Now, can I just ask, what's the sort of chatter and, optimism feeling around you and your colleagues off the back of a poll that shows, and it's a poll that was commissioned by nine, the company I work for, through Resolve Strategic, that shows that Peter Dutton is just edged ahead of Prime Minister Albanese as the preferred Prime Minister. Your thoughts on that?
PATERSON: Oh, look, I think it's further evidence that the next election will be competitive. It will be close. There's more work that we need to do on our side of the fence to get ready for that, to set out our clear agenda and vision and we know what that is and that work is taking place. But I think Australians are really struggling right now, and they're looking to the government and finding no solutions for the problems in their lives, particularly with the cost of living. I mean, it's so many, interest rate rises on this government's watch, so much financial pressure and really very little to alleviate that and particularly just frankly show the fiscal discipline required in times like these. And so I'm not surprised that people are disillusioned. And it's up to us to present that alternative for them.
ADSHEAD: Can I just ask because it's going to sort of hit Western Australia at some point when, the opposition announce your plans in terms of nuclear energy, where do you sit on it? You happy to see a reactor here in WA?
PATERSON: I don't have a view about the specific locations. That's a really a technical assessment based on the electricity grid and the appropriate sites. But I'm very excited about the potential for, really proven technology, emissions free nuclear technology. It's been used in almost every advanced economy around the world. We're one of the only countries that doesn't do it, and we don't think you can safely make and responsibly make a transition to a net zero economy without technology like this.
ADSHEAD: Timeline though, and the costs? I mean, certainly we know that nothing could come on line until after 2040.
PATERSON: Oh, look, we'll be outlining the timeline when we release our policies and the costs and the Australian people will have an opportunity to judge it. But we'll also be outlining the process that allows communities to have a say in the process and feel a sense of ownership about the benefits that will come to their communities from having one of those nuclear facilities in their communities. Because not only will it provide that reliable baseload, electricity, but it also provides terrific jobs and investment flow on for communities. In some of the countries in the world they fight to get them in their communities. I think you might see the same here in Australia.
ADSHEAD: Right. Thanks very much for joining us, James. Appreciate your time.
PATERSON: Thanks for having me.
ENDS
