January 22, 2025
HAMISH MACDONALD: But of course, you heard in the news that a man has been charged after an alleged attempt to set a religious building on fire in Newtown earlier this month. This is a part of Strike Force Pearl. And, of course, the investigation into the attack on a childcare centre in Maroubra is continuing this morning. A surprising twist, though, you probably saw or heard this on the news overnight. The federal police are asking us to consider whether overseas actors are paying local criminals to carry out antisemitic attacks, including radicalising young people online. There was a briefing from the AFP provided to a hastily called National Cabinet meeting yesterday afternoon. We have asked the Australian Federal Police to join us, the Police Commissioner, Reece Kershaw, to explain some of this to you. Obviously, it's, I suppose it's a surprising detail that we hadn't really heard about before. The Prime Minister, as we speak this morning, is giving a press conference here at Parramatta Square. So if he says anything, we'll bring you up to date with that. But for now, with me on 7.02 Mornings is the shadow Home Affairs spokesperson, James Paterson. A very good morning to you.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Hamish.
MACDONALD: What's your observation about these reports that the Federal Police are investigating overseas actors paying possibly in cryptocurrency, local criminals to carry out these attacks?
PATERSON: Well, Hamish, if it is true, it is a gravely serious issue. It will be one of the most serious security crises that Australia has faced in peacetime. It either means that a transnational terrorist organisation is sponsoring attacks in Australia or that a foreign government is engaged in state sponsored terror targeting of the Jewish community in Australia. And this claim will strike terrible fear in the heart of the Jewish community and other Australians who feel like they're on the receiving end of this. I think it is incumbent on the Prime Minister to say more about what he knows about this, when he was briefed about it, whether the National Security Committee of Cabinet has met about it, whether our intelligence agencies and our Five Eyes partners are engaged in this. Because it is irresponsible to put out such a serious claim without more substantiation.
MACDONALD: Have you received any briefings on this at all?
PATERSON: No.
MACDONALD: Are you requesting them?
PATERSON: Yes. We will be requesting those briefings today because it is such a serious claim to be made that more information does need to come to light about this. I mean, it would have such serious ramifications, and serious action would have to follow if it is true.
MACDONALD: I mean, are you skeptical, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here. Do you doubt the veracity of this reporting?
PATERSON: Well, I think it would be certainly interesting if a foreign state sponsored actor, for example, was undertaking this activity in Australia, but nowhere else in the world. There's no evidence, for example, of this happening in the United States or the United Kingdom, or other like-minded countries. Why Australia would be singled out by a foreign actor to do this would be a very important part of the claim that's been made.
MACDONALD: But there is a growing hybrid warfare threat in various parts of the world, certainly in Western democracies. Poland, for example, has had in the last year a significant number of fires, and they allege that this is actually Russian security or intelligence agencies trying to stoke or undermine social cohesion in Poland. They're low-level fires in largely sort of migrant inhabited areas, and this is a tactic that does seem to be used by some actors, some state actors.
PATERSON: That's absolutely right, Hamish. And I have been warning about this for a number of years because it is a serious threat to our democracy. But in the case of Poland, it is much more obvious why that might be taking place. There is a war between Russia and Ukraine, and Poland is a very significant supporter of the Ukrainian cause, as Australia is, as we all should be. And it's very plausible why the Russian government, for example, might be engaged in this. I'm not sure why the Russian government or any other foreign government would be engaged in these acts against the Jewish community in Australia. And as I say, it's up to the Prime Minister to tell people what he knows about this. Why hasn't he disclosed this previously? When was he first briefed about this? Doesn't the Australian public deserve to know if it's the case that either a transnational terrorist organisation or a foreign government is sponsoring terrorist attacks in Australia against the Jewish community? It is an incredibly serious claim. And a strong claim like that needs strong evidence to back it up.
MACDONALD: To be clear though, I mean, the Prime Minister was asked about it this morning, and he said, look, you know, at the moment, I can't say more. And you would understand as well as anyone that if there are lines of inquiry being pursued, that it's not really appropriate for the head of government to be out there discussing where that might lead.
PATERSON: Well, if that's the case, why was this partial information released to the public by the government? Why was a statement issued putting out speculative and unconfirmed information that is still being pursued? If there wasn't solid evidence to back it up. That's something only the prime minister can explain.
MACDONALD: Obviously, National Cabinet happened yesterday. That's something that you have called for. In terms of the outcomes of that. This register of antisemitic attacks, if you like, a national approach to documenting it. Is that a positive step?
PATERSON: I'm really disappointed that it took the Prime Minister 15 months to convene a National Cabinet despite being invited and requested to do so by the Opposition, the antisemitism Commissioner and the Jewish community. And I'm even more disappointed that now that it has happened, the only concrete outcome that has come out of it is a database. I mean, we already have databases of antisemitism. Groups like the Executive Council of Australian Jewry have been keeping and publishing databases of antisemitic incidents for years. It's very unclear to me how a database is going to lock up domestic terrorists roaming around our community, firebombing synagogues, cars and now childcare centres.
MACDONALD: So what is it that you want? What's the outcome that you desire?
PATERSON: I think a couple of things could and should have come out of National Cabinet last night. The first is what we've been calling for, which is mandatory minimum sentences for these offences because we need to send a very clear message to the perpetrators of these offences that if and when you are caught that there'll be very serious consequences for your behaviour. We will lock you up for years to protect the community. Secondly, I'm astonished that more resources have not been coordinated by National Cabinet behind these special taskforces and operations that we have in place. Why isn't there a more joined-up response between state and federal governments? Why wasn't a joint state and federal police force initiative coming out of this? This is an extraordinary crisis that has festered on the Prime Minister's watch. He has not appreciated the seriousness of it. He's ignored the warnings and now it is out of control.
MACDONALD: We spoke to the New South Wales Acting Deputy Commissioner, Peter McKenna, on this program yesterday. Obviously, there's been a lot of focus on changes to state-based legislation and some discussion of mandatory sentencing that your side of politics has put forward at a federal level. But this is what Peter McKenna had to say about the idea of solving this through laws.
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PETER MCKENNA: But I'm very confident more arrests are going to come, and they will come soon. Can I say this is going to stop every one of these types of attacks? No, I can't because we can't just arrest their way out of these things. We need the community to come forward to tell us what they know. We need people out there to say enough is enough and between all of us. Hold these people to account.
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MACDONALD: Can you arrest through a problem like this? I mean, I understand the significance of sentencing, but this has got to be about more than just the law, doesn't it? This is a social cohesion issue.
PATERSON: I partly agree with you, Hamish. Of course, this is a social cohesion issue. And of course, there's a role for education about antisemitism and the Holocaust. And there's a role for community leaders to step up and, you know, lead on this issue. But we would be extremely naive if we think that arresting terrorists who are blowing up synagogues and childcare centres and cars isn't going to be a really big part of the solution. These are dangerous people. They are on the streets. They are doing harm. It's a miracle that no one has been hurt or killed so far, but that is where I fear this will end up unless really decisive action is taken to deter them and to punish them. And the safest thing we can do for our country is to get these people off the streets, out of harm's way, behind bars so they can't engage any more of these attacks.
MACDONALD: And in terms of the definitions, because we spoke to Julian Leeser on this program yesterday, He was describing what occurred in Maroubra as a terrorist incident, but the New South Wales police were a little more reserved on that, saying it's actually up to the police commissioner to make that determination and it's more to do with what resourcing is made available to the investigation, etc.. What's your position on that?
PATERSON: I will leave it up to the police to make their own determination and to go through their processes. But I think politicians should call it as we see it. And it's really hard to describe this in any other way. It's certainly how the Jewish community feels. They feel like they are on the receiving end of a domestic terror campaign. And if we look at the classic definition of terrorism, it is politically or ideologically motivated violence or religiously motivated violence. It appears very clear to me that the people engaging in these attacks, particularly based on the fact that they're using swastikas, that they're targeting Jews and Israel in their graffiti and the types of venues that they're targeting, that they're either motivated by ideology or they're motivated by religion. And if that is the case then I think it is terrorism.
MACDONALD: But should the politicians leave it to the police to make the determination? I guess that's really at the heart of this question.
PATERSON: Well, the Prime Minister and others eventually called the Adass Israel firebombing a terrorist attack after a number of days. And I think it is appropriate for us to call it as we see it. That doesn't impede anyway on the police in what they do. I hope if they see the evidence through their processes that they also call it this, but I think we should call it as we see it.
MACDONALD: Obviously, we can all observe that there's a real political heat to this conversation. Your side of politics is taking strong positions, other parties are taking other positions on it. David called in to us yesterday morning, a Jewish man from Maroubra who described the conversation he was having with his kids yesterday about what had unfolded around the corner from their home. This is what he had to say.
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DAVID: I live in Maroubra Junction. Local family. We are Jewish, but we've got nothing to do with anything going on overseas. Well, I had to tell my 14-year-old daughter this morning at breakfast that 'F*** the Jews' was written around the corner, a young Jewish girl in Maroubra Junction. It's just not on. It's depressing. It's horrifying, to be honest. Look, I think obviously improvements in those laws are good. These criminals have to be caught. I think Chris Minns is trying to do the best he can. I think Anthony Albanese, I think he's doing the best he can as well. He's been condemning this stuff since day one. Chris Minns has been condemning it since day one. This can't be politicised. To be honest I think Peter Dutton is opportunistically politicising this. I think this is not about politics, it's about community.
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MACDONALD: What do you say to that?
PATERSON: I certainly understand and respect David's point of view and my heart goes out to him and anyone else who has to have this difficult conversation with their children about why their community is being targeted. The role of an opposition in a liberal democracy, though, is to hold the government to account, and we very sincerely believe that the Prime Minister has not appreciated the seriousness of this crisis.
MACDONALD: But you do have to do that responsibly, though right? Without exacerbating the divisions within the community.
PATERSON: And I think we've done so. We've provided a number of constructive suggestions, including calling a National Cabinet, including establishing a national task force, including strengthening our deportation laws, including mandatory minimum sentences, some of which the government has taken up, many of which I doubt the government would have done unless it was the opposition suggesting it. That is the role of an opposition in a liberal democracy. And if the government had followed our advice more quickly and followed more of it, I think we would be in a different situation today. I think if the Prime Minister had responded more strongly after the Sydney Opera House and other incidents, I think this might not have gotten to where it was. And I think it's a tragedy that it has.
MACDONALD: Senator James Patterson, really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.
PATERSON: Good to be with you.
ENDS
