March 11, 2024
PATRICIA KARVELAS: James Paterson is the shadow Minister for Home affairs and he's currently in Israel. James Paterson, welcome back to Breakfast.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning.
KARVELAS: What's the purpose of your trip to Israel?
PATERSON: We're here as part of a delegation sponsored by the Australia Israel Jewish Affairs Council for two reasons. One is to show our solidarity with the people of Israel at the most difficult time in their modern history. And the second is to get updated information about the conflict and to share Australia's perspective on it.
KARVELAS: How do you reflect on the humanitarian situation for the civilians in Gaza at the moment, particularly the issue of hunger?
PATERSON: It's very serious, there's no doubt about it. There is a very significant number of people displaced within Gaza who are struggling to get access to aid and assistance, and there have been very dire warnings from the UN and other aid agencies about the impact on their health and wellbeing of that continued inability to get aid to them. It's very dire.
KARVELAS: Does Israel need to do more to ensure that more aid, particularly food, can get into Gaza?
PATERSON: I think everybody wants to see more aid and particularly food, as you say, get into Gaza. I think that's critically important to alleviate the significant suffering for many innocent civilians in Gaza, and all steps need to be taken to do so. That's something that we've raised with our interlocutors here in Israel. And the explanation that we've been given by some of them is that it is operationally very difficult to do for a range of reasons. One is that it's obviously an ongoing military operation there between Hamas and the IDF, which means it's not safe. There are also very desperate, starving people and when some of those convoys have tried to bring aid in, they have been rushed by desperate people, understandably. That's why the United States and others have resorted to airdrops and are now exploring also a sea corridor that will effectively allow them to bring it in along the coast instead as well.
KARVELAS: But particularly in northern Gaza, if the estimates are around 300,000 people north of Wadi Gaza, if they're dropping 11,000 single meals, a meal packs MREs for that number of people. Is that really going to do the job?
PATERSON: Well, there is also aid coming in across the land borders, but obviously not at a rate which is sufficient at the moment, which is why they are exploring these other options to get aid in. And it is clear that the circumstances are very difficult for those people, no question.
KARVELAS: Aid groups are continuing to emphasise the need for a ceasefire on the ground. Do you get a sense that a ceasefire is far off?
PATERSON: Most people here are quite pessimistic about the prospects for a ceasefire. The United States has attempted to broker a ceasefire, but the most recent offer, supported by the United States, was rejected by Hamas. That would have involved a six week ceasefire, a very significant increase in the flow of aid and the release of the Israeli hostages, and in exchange, a release of Palestinians held in Israeli captivity as well. Hamas rejected that on the basis that it didn't also involve the complete removal of the IDF from Gaza. Israel says that it's not possible to withdraw the IDF from Gaza until the military operations are complete. They believe of the 24 Hamas brigades that were there at the start of the war, there's probably only about four to six remaining in Rafah, and they are very determined to finish that operation.
KARVELAS: Canada and Sweden have restored their funding to UNRWA, the UN group which is providing aid in Palestinian areas. Should Australia restore its funding? Has that time come now, do you think?
PATERSON: My view is that Australia should only restore its funding when it is confident that there is no risk of any of that funding finding its way to Hamas, and that UNRWA has dealt with the issues of its employees' alleged complicity in the atrocities of 7th October. There is an investigation currently occurring by a former French Foreign Minister. That investigation has not been completed or published yet, and if we try to resume our support for UNRWA before then, we would have to have very strong guarantees that Australian money would not be misspent.
KARVELAS: What will people, civilians in Gaza eat in the meantime while that process is happening?
PATERSON: The major obstacle to get aid into Gaza is not funding for UNRWA. It is the physical obstacles and operational obstacles to getting the aid in. Of course, more aid would always be welcome. But the main obstacles are not the amount of aid, but the access of that aid into Gaza and particularly the distribution of the aid within Gaza, which is very challenging operationally.
KARVELAS: Is there an understanding that the longer, aid is in deficit, that there's a shortage of food, that the worse the situation on the ground gets?
PATERSON: Yes, I think that's widely understood.
KARVELAS: What do you think about that?
PATERSON: Well, it's extremely regrettable. I mean, these are very challenging circumstances. And, mostly, because of Hamas's choosing, Hamas has chosen to fight a battle in one of the most densely populated civilian areas in the world and has co-located its fighters and its munitions in including Beneath UNRWA headquarters in Gaza, in schools, in hospitals, and in mosques.
KARVELAS: How does withholding aid make Israel safer?
PATERSON: Well, I'm not suggesting that that's true. That's not my position. I've clearly said I think that more aid does need to get into Gaza, and it should be facilitated.
KARVELAS: If the United States restores funding. Do you think that Australia should follow its lead?
PATERSON: I would assume the United States wouldn't do so without a very high degree of confidence about the administration of that aid and the funding. And I think we need to have that same high level of confidence. It's important to remember that Hamas is a listed terrorist organisation in its entirety in Australia. And if an Australian citizen tried to fundraise or donate for Hamas, even if they tried to do so through an intermediary like a charity, that would be a very serious crime under the Commonwealth Criminal Code, and they could be prosecuted and sent to prison for it. So we shouldn't be in any way comfortable with the Australian taxpayers money potentially finding its way into the hands of Hamas, or supporting people who participated in the worst atrocity against Jewish people since the end of the Holocaust.
KARVELAS: Would you call on Israel to do more to speed up the distribution of aid?
PATERSON: Well, those are the questions we put to our Israeli interlocutors here in Israel. Of course, everybody wants to see the suffering of innocent Gazans alleviated as soon as possible, including by the delivery of aid more rapidly.
KARVELAS: I guess there's a difference between putting questions and putting forward a point of view. Would you argue that Israel should be doing more to speed up the distribution of aid?
PATERSON: Israel should do everything they can to get aid into Gaza. It is extremely concerning and regrettable that there has been interruptions to the supply of aid to the people of Gaza, because there are many innocent people there who are suffering as a result.
KARVELAS: If UNWRA is not delivering the aid, who would be able to pick up the slack at the moment?
PATERSON: Well, at the moment the slack is being picked up by, UNWRA is continuing to deliver aid, but the slack is also being picked up by the United States and its allies, by the World Food Program, by the Red Cross and Red Crescent and others. There are a number of people who are trying to do this, but all of them having operational difficulties in doing so because there is a conflict being fought right now among the population of Gaza.
KARVELAS: The other issue that, of course is continuing, regards the hostages who remain in Gaza. Who have you spoken to in Israel about that issue?
PATERSON: We've spoken to advisers to the government, to retired military and intelligence officials, to think tanks and others. And tomorrow we'll be meeting with some of the hostages families who are obviously very concerned about their plight. Last night in Tel Aviv, we visited Hostages Square, which is a permanent commemoration of the hostages and a vigil in solidarity with them. It's of great concern to Israelis that they're potentially up to 130 still in captivity, although we don't know how many of those are alive. These are innocent people who were kidnapped and taken by Hamas into Gaza and have been held in very difficult conditions, probably underground now for six months, who also have very limited access to food and water and other necessities.
KARVELAS: US President Joe Biden has made some strong comments overnight. Warning Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that, the current situation could be hurting Israel more than it's helping Israel, and that, Mr. Netanyahu must pay more attention to the innocent lives being lost. Is he right?
PATERSON: I think there's no question that Israel is losing the global public relations battle. I think there's very serious damage being done to Israel's reputation around the world because of the way the public relations battle is being fought out. But talking to people here on the ground in Israel, their priority is the military operation over the public relations battle. They don't want to see Gaza return to being controlled by Hamas again. And they are concerned if they stop their operation before they eliminate the remaining Hamas brigades, that's exactly what will happen. And this whole operation would have been worth nothing. And 7th October will be repeated again and again and again, which Hamas has said they will do. I think they're right in recognising that continued Hamas control of Gaza will not deliver peace for the people of Gaza, for the Palestinian people, or for the Israeli people.
KARVELAS: The BBC is reporting that an internal document drafted by UNWRA says that Palestinians, including its staff, have been subjected to threats and coercion under Israeli detention, including pressure to make false statements about UNWRA. Will you ask Israeli officials about that issue during your visit?
PATERSON: We certainly will be having discussions with Israeli officials about the evidence against UNWRA, but a lot of that evidence is already in the public realm. There are videos available of UNWRA employees participating in the 7th October attacks. UNWRA itself doesn't deny that. It has fired some of its employees because of their associations with Hamas. It's very clear that Hamas operatives have infiltrated and been part of UNWRA for many years. And even setting aside those concerns, we also have very well documented concerns of anti-Semitic content in the school textbooks taught in UNRWA's schools and UNWRA schools being involved in incitement to violence against the Jewish people.
KARVELAS: What's your understanding of how many Australians are currently fighting with the IDF? Who are members of the IDF?
PATERSON: I don't have any specific numbers. Although it is the case that there are dual Australian-Israeli citizens who do serve in the IDF.
KARVELAS: James Paterson, shadow Minister for Home Affairs, currently in Israel. Thank you very much.
PATERSON: Thank you.
ENDS
