July 15, 2024
PATRICIA KARVELAS: James Paterson is the Shadow Home Affairs Minister and has just come back from a trip to the United States. Welcome back to the program.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Patricia.
KARVELAS: Some parts of the Trump campaign have already tried to politicise this attack. Is that dangerous?
PATERSON: One of the most fundamental norms of democracies, Patricia, is that we resolve our disputes by peaceful means and through the democratic process, and not by violence. And that's for two reasons. One, it's a violation of our values, which regards that people are individually worthy and that they have an equal say in the future of our country, not to use violence. But secondly, and most importantly, because if we make it normal that you can use violence to resolve political disputes, then we won't have a democracy very quickly. And so it's critically important at a time like this that everybody responds in a calm and measured way to ensure that there's no further escalation of violence.
KARVELAS: What are you worried about right now?
PATERSON: Well, I'm worried because this is an extraordinary and shocking event, but it could have even been worse if the shooters aim had been slightly better and President Trump had been killed, rather than just being injured. It's almost unthinkable what the consequences would have been for the United States and the world had that happened. But also because even here in Australia, we shouldn't be complacent about these threats. While it's true we've got very different gun safety regulations and everyone supports that, as you pointed out in your analysis this morning, they also have those strong laws in the United Kingdom. And two members of Parliament in the UK in the last decade have been murdered. And there are some troubling signs that there are trends towards using violent means in Australia to try and intimidate parliamentarians and their staff. And we cannot allow that to take hold here.
KARVELAS: So how do we stop it, though? Because we have seen an alarming increase in threats. I've read some of the death threats that have been presented to MPs that are trying to play them down. They don't want copycat attacks. They don't want to inflame the situation. But how do you take down the temperature?
PATERSON: Well, there are practical things that we need to do from a security standpoint to make sure that the Australian Federal Police, who provide protective security to Members of Parliament and this staff and families and other high office holders, have the resources that they need to do their job. And I think we need to always reflect on that and make sure at this moment that that's the case. But secondly, it's about political leadership. It has to be widely condemned whenever that threshold is crossed, even in a minor way. Because when you cross that threshold in a minor way, it runs the risk of escalation. So the protests that we've seen and the targeting of electorate offices in this country in the last nine months is totally unacceptable - the firebombing of Josh Burns office, but also, frankly, the picketing and intimidation of other elected offices like Peter Khalil’s office in Melbourne. And I actually think the protest outside a Labor Party fundraiser in Brisbane over the weekend was a very troubling step towards U.S. style demonisation of people who participate in the political process. You should not be verbally harassed and jostled when you're simply going to a fundraiser, as they were there, or indeed at the Labor Party state conference in Victoria a few months ago, where people were spat on and harassed and jostled. That is totally unacceptable. And political leaders of all stripes and persuasions, particularly the Greens, who are associated with that movement, must call it out and must say it's unacceptable.
KARVELAS: You met with members of the Trump campaign, during your trip before this attack occurred, to be clear. Are you confident they're doing enough to, stop tensions, to take the temperature down? Because there has been an escalation in rhetoric during this election campaign in the United States.
PATERSON: I want to be careful, for obvious reasons, not to comment on the domestic politics of a closely allied nation. And what I can say about those meetings is they were very encouraging from the bilateral relationship point of view. Australia has many great friends in Washington D.C. on both sides of the aisle, including in the Biden administration and on both sides of Congress, but including people who are likely to be appointed to a Trump administration in national security roles. They have very strong support for ANZUS, they have very strong support for AUKUS, for the Five Eyes intelligence sharing relationship, for our free trade agreement. These are the pillars of our bilateral relationship. And they are completely uncontentious and very widely supported. So regardless of who wins in November, I'm confident about Australia's position.
KARVELAS: Australia is a very different place to the United States though. But you're warning that if we don't take further action, that you think that we are at real risk of seeing something happen here?
PATERSON: Well, if it can happen in the United States, it can happen anywhere. And I know there's been some commentators in the last few days saying this is normal for the United States, and they point to Lincoln or JFK or Bobby Kennedy's assassination.
KARVELAS: There has been a history, hasn't there?
PATERSON: And there is a history of that. But even in the United States, this has become a much rarer event in recent times. You have to go back 40 years to Ronald Reagan for the last time a president or presidential candidate was shot, in 1981. And you have to go back to 1968 to Bobby Kennedy when one was actually killed. So even in the United States, this is a rare event. But if it can happen there, then it can happen anywhere. And we can't afford to be complacent about that.
KARVELAS: I just want to change the topic to talk about a very big story unfolding in Australia. And that's, the allegations around the CFMEU and the infiltration, even with union officials from criminality and bikie gangs, it's pretty disturbing stuff. Yesterday I spoke with Tony Burke, who's the Industrial Relations Minister, Employment Minister on Insiders. He said, all options are on the table, including de-registering this union. Is that good enough?
PATERSON: All options must be on the table, but it's actually time for the Albanese government to do something rather than just talk about it. Let's remember that one of the first acts of this government on coming to office was to abolish the Australian Building and Construction Commissioner, which had been the tough cop on the beat dealing with the CFMEU.
KARVELAS: Sure, just want to interrupt to say what they are saying though, is that that tough cop that was on the beat was around when some of this stuff was happening and didn't seem to do much understand.
PATERSON: I understand that's their talking point. But how did getting rid of the ABCC make this situation better? Let's remember there's a shocking conflict here, which is the CFMEU is one of the Labor party's biggest donors, has donated millions of dollars over the last few years. Frankly, I think deregistration of the CFMEU must be on the table, just as Bob Hawke did with the Builders and Labourers Federation, because what is happening in the CFMEU, and that was its precursor union, is exactly the same. It involves allegations of very serious, institutionalised criminality and corruption. This is not just a union which has gone a bit out of line, which is a bit militant. This is very serious accusations of rorting public projects to the tune of millions of dollars, of bikie gangs and other organised criminals infiltrating and running this union. If the Prime Minister doesn't stand up and show leadership here, then I think the public will rightly harshly judge him for it.
KARVELAS: James Paterson, thank you so much. Lovely to speak to you.
PATERSON: Thanks, Patricia.
ENDS
