June 17, 2024
PATRICIA KARVELAS: As we've been discussing this morning, there will be several key issues discussed today with China. Foreign interference is one issue. The Shadow Home Affairs Minister wants front and centre. And Senator James Paterson joins the program now. Senator, welcome to the program.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Patricia.
KARVELAS: We've just heard from the government outlining in the form of Murray Watt outlining what will be raised. He says foreign interference will be raised. Are you satisfied?
PATERSON: Look, I am pleased. It's very important that in the range of complex and important issues we have to raise with our Chinese friends, that foreign interference will be one among those. And I think it's also important that we're publicly candid about that, because right now, as you heard earlier on your program, we have Australian citizens like Vicky Xu who feel unsafe in their own country because they're being intimidated and coerced by an authoritarian superpower, and that's not good enough.
KARVELAS: Vicky Xu told us the AFP told her not to speak, and then she decided to, well, break that rule, I suppose, or request and has spoken. Did she do the right thing?
PATERSON: I asked the Australian Federal Police about this at Senate estimates a couple of weeks ago, because Four Corners had reported on the case of another Australian who had been contacted by the AFP and warned that he was a target of a foreign interference operation. And he spoke about it. The AFP said to me in that, that it was their preference that targets of these sort of attacks don't talk about it. But they also said it's their right to talk about it. And let's remember, these are Australian citizens we're talking about here. And, they are within their rights to talk about what's happened to them.
KARVELAS: Okay. So that's what they said. I asked you what you think. Do you think it was the right thing to do? So it ventilates the issue, so we know?
PATERSON: Well, I don't give advice to individuals about how they should deal with law enforcement or national security.
KARVELAS: Well they took their own advice, what do you think of the action?
PATERSON: Yeah, I'm making a important precondition to what I'm about to say, which is that if there are any operational sensitivities, I think everyone should be mindful of that. But I also think that it's very important to shed light on what's happening, because when the Director General of Security, for example, in his annual threat assessment, says that foreign interference and espionage is our number one security threat, that's a very important disclosure. But it's quite a high level and theoretical one. And when an individual like Vicky Xu or Drew Pavlou or others come forward and talk about their personal experiences, about how they feel like they are being surveilled and followed in their own country, that gives it a real, meaningful, and tangible flavour for the Australian people to understand.
KARVELAS: What concerns will your leader, Peter Dutton, raise today specifically?
PATERSON: Well, Peter will raise the full range of positives and negatives in the bilateral relationship. He'll be candid, with our Chinese counterparts about foreign interference and espionage, cyber attacks. I think critically, the ongoing, unjust detention of Dr Yang Hengjun, an Australian citizen who is on death row in China. And no convincing case has been made that he has breached the law in any way. And his family are gravely concerned for his wellbeing.
KARVELAS: You said last week, if elected, the Coalition would call on the peak intelligence agency to give annual threat assessments, calling out Chinese foreign interference. How much detail would those assessments provide?
PATERSON: Well, the American counterpart of our Office of National Intelligence is the Director of National Intelligence, and it publishes an annual assessment of global geopolitical trends in intelligence and security. And it's a hugely useful document for illustrating the challenges that Western democracies face. Now, Australia doesn't have the resources and capabilities of the United States, but we do have great equities and access and interest in our own region. And I think we can and should be candid about some of the troubling trends that we are seeing in our region. And ONI could do that in a structured, dispassionate, calm, an analytical way to reveal some things that we know about what's happening and the high level trends, so that both Australians, but others in the Pacific can be informed.
KARVELAS: De Yang Hengjun supporters have released another statement saying authorities have reviewed and upheld his original suspended death sentence. Is there more we should be doing to fight it?
PATERSON: We must do absolutely everything we can because his family are rightly very concerned about his health and well-being. He has been unjustly detained for too long. He should be released and be allowed to return to his family and to Australia. And there is nothing that we shouldn't do to raise our concerns about him, including directly with the Chinese leadership at every opportunity.
KARVELAS: His supporters are urging the Prime Minister to demand that Dr Yang be released on medical parole, or transferred to Australia. How possible is that outcome?
PATERSON: Well, it's very difficult to see inside the Chinese justice system. It is not like ours in any way, shape or form. It is completely opaque and it is often decided according to political criteria, not according to independent legal criteria like our own. So we will never know until they make a decision. But Cheng Lei and others have been freed in the past, and we just hope that the Chinese government shows some compassion and decency towards Dr Yang and frankly, some respect for Australia, and releases him accordingly.
KARVELAS: Senator Paterson, there are reports your party wants to push out Chinese Liberal candidate Scott Yung in the Sydney seat of Bennelong to make way for Gisele Kapterian, who was the candidate for North Sydney, which has been abolished under a draft redistribution plan by the Australian Electoral Commission. Is that fair?
PATERSON: I'm very cautious about commenting about organisational matters, particularly in other divisions, but my view is Scott Yung is an outstanding candidate and has been duly preselected for Bennelong. Gisele Kapterian is someone I also know and have a very high regard for, and I hope that she can be accommodated and a seat can be found for her too.
KARVELAS: Okay, but you think he has a right to stand?
PATERSON: Well, it's a matter to be resolved by the organisation wing in New South Wales. And I'm a senator from Victoria. It's not appropriate for me to dictate to them what they do, but I think Scott is a great candidate. Peter Dutton was campaigning with him only last week. I think he's got a very good chance of winning that seat from Labor. But I also have a high regard for Gisele and I want to see her to have a great future in the federal parliament.
KARVELAS: The Liberal Party has been trying to win back the Chinese Australian population that you lost in Bennelong at the last election. What message does potentially ousting a local Australian Chinese candidate send the community?
PATERSON: Well, that hasn't happened and I'm not sure why you would think that it would happen on the basis of one media report speculating. I think Scott, is a highly credential candidate, he has been preselected for the seat. He's campaigning very well, Peter Dutton was with him last week, and I think he's got a very good chance of winning.
KARVELAS: Senator James Paterson, always great to speak to you. Thanks for coming on.
PATERSON: Thanks Patricia.
ENDS
