February 22, 2024
PATRICIA KARVELAS: I'm joined in the studio by the Shadow Minister for Home Affairs, Senator James Paterson. Welcome back to Breakfast.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning.
KARVELAS: Why don't you trust our intelligence agencies to properly vet people being granted these visas?
PATERSON: I do trust our intelligence agencies, but they've been given an impossible task. And that task is to approve people from a war zone controlled by a terrorist organisation in as little as 24 hours, on average. And as the ABC has reported, in as little as one hour in some cases, to come to Australia. Now, it is very difficult to understand how you could do an adequate identity check, let alone a security check, on someone coming from a region like that in just one hour. No one denies there's a genuine humanitarian need in Gaza. No one denies that there are many innocent people in Gaza who are victims of Hamas, just as much as the Israelis are victims of Hamas. But there are also supporters of Hamas in Gaza, there's no doubt about that. And if any one of those came to Australia as part of this cohort of 2000 people, I think that would be very dangerous for our country and damaging for our social cohesion.
KARVELAS: But there is no evidence that any of them are dangerous, is there?
PATERSON: Well, then the Minister of Home Affairs should be able to stand up today and say, hand on heart, that the 2200 visas that her department has granted to these people, that not one among them is a Hamas supporter or sympathiser. It would be an extraordinary thing if she's confident enough to do that, but I'll accept it. If she stands up and says that today, I'll take it at her word.
KARVELAS: What is your benchmark for ascertaining whether someone is a Hamas sympathiser?
PATERSON: Well, It's not even clear to me that the department has done that work. It's not even clear to me that those questions have been asked. We have a serious problem of anti-Semitism in this country. It's the greatest crisis in a generation faced by our Jewish community. And the Jewish community, who I spent time with at an event last night, are deeply anxious about this. They are fearful that some of the people who came from Gaza or are coming from Gaza were supporters of what happened on the 7th of October. We've seen footage of people celebrating the 7th of October attacks in Gaza. How would it help the antisemitism crisis that we have? How would it help our social cohesion if a Hamas supporter came among those 2000 people?
KARVELAS: But are you talking about people being active, actual potential terrorists in this country or their political ideology? I'm just trying to get that distinction.
PATERSON: Well that would be the most extreme end of the spectrum obviously, a terrorist supporter, that would be extremely worrying. But I think even a political supporter of Hamas is not someone that we should choose to come to our country. That's not someone we should welcome to our country.
KARVELAS: That would be a new benchmark, wouldn't it? James Paterson, that we are interrogating people's political views.
PATERSON: Hamas is a listed terrorist organisation in Australia. It is an offence to support Hamas in Australia. It is an offence to recruit for them. It is an offence to fundraise for them. It is an offence to encourage people to engage in acts of violence on their behalf. So we should be concerned if there are people who are supportive of Hamas who are seeking to come to Australia, and it is not clear to me that the department has done the basic checks necessary to protect the community from that risk.
KARVELAS: When you were in government, you approved 5000 temporary visas for Afghans when the Taliban retook control of Afghanistan. That was also a rushed process in the middle of a conflict zone. Did you check if any of them supported the Taliban?
PATERSON: As I said before, no one is denying there's a genuine humanitarian need in Gaza, nor that Australia doesn't have a role to play. All I'm asking is that adequate security checks must take place to make sure. Now, in the case of Afghanistan that you raised, we were there on the ground ourselves for 20 years, working in partnership with the people of Afghanistan to try and build a functional state. And when it collapsed and when the Taliban took over, we rushed out the people who worked with us for those 20 years who we knew well, they were people like interpreters who worked with our defence forces on the ground. They were people who worked at the Australian Embassy. They were people who we had some level of confidence, who they were and their commitment to our values and our country, and so we could make the decision to bring them out quickly, as we should.
KARVELAS: So that's what you say about Afghanistan and Syria. The former government also was really active in getting people here and and quickly, it was the same process, wasn't it?
PATERSON: Again, no one is denying humanitarian need, no one saying we shouldn't take anyone out of Gaza, just as we did out of Syria. I think that was a great humanitarian thing that the Abbott government did. I'm very proud of that. Those were people who are being targeted by Islamic State, primarily because they were religious and ethnic minorities in Syria. They were Christians, they were Yazidis, they were Kurds, they were other groups being targeted by Islamic State. They had a genuine humanitarian need, just as there is a genuine humanitarian need in Gaza. But we have to recognise there are also supporters of Hamas in Gaza. And I don't think we should be relaxed about the risk of some of those people coming to Australia.
KARVELAS: The point I'm trying to make, and I'd like to your view on is, isn't the risk the same? Or are you saying there's a higher risk from Palestinians?
PATERSON: Well, I'm saying there's a risk because Gaza has been governed for almost 20 years by a terrorist organisation. It has no functional state. And to the extent it has, it's run by a listed terrorist organisation.
KARVELAS: But there's been no democratic elections, as you know.
PATERSON: So the last democratic elections were in 2006-
KARVELAS: A long time ago.
PATERSON: Where Hamas was elected and came to power and has then eliminated all of its rivals, including Fatah, and driven them out of Gaza and back to the West Bank. And that's why I've got great compassion for the people of Gaza who are hostages of Hamas just as much as the 100 Israelis still taken by Hamas are there, too. But that entails real risks. This is a terrorist organisation. It's not a functional state. How can you be confident about the identity issued by a Hamas government, let alone any potential security risk?
KARVELAS: It's understood that the reason that they're able to get them approved so quickly is they have actually really, really detailed identity documents because they must have them in relation to the entrance and exit out of Israel in that context. Do you accept that rationale?
PATERSON: Well, if the government is confident about that, then the Minister for Home Affairs should be able to say, not one among these 2200 people is a Hamas supporter. She should be able to say that today. Give that guarantee to the Australian public.
KARVELAS: Could you ever say that? Could you? If you were in government, because the benchmark is quite low, that just this is about people's sort of broad views. Who could ever make that guarantee? It's a huge call.
PATERSON: Let's put this in context Patricia, if you want to bring a skilled worker to this country, it takes you about three months to get a visa processed. If you want to bring a spouse to this country, it can take you a year to get their visa processed. If you want to bring your mum or your dad to this country, it can take you five years. So if it takes that long for those categories of visas, how we seriously saying that in 60 minutes we can do an adequate security and identity check to bring someone to Australia from a war zone controlled by a terrorist organisation?
KARVELAS: But they're not just random people, their family members.
PATERSON: Many of them are family members, there's no doubt about that. But that on itself, on its own, does not guarantee that they're not a Hamas sympathiser or Hamas supporter. I mean, the footage from the 7th October, I've seen the full 40 minute footage provided by the Israeli embassy, which is not public. It's harrowing and horrific. And unfortunately, it does show that civilians participated in some of the attacks on the 7th of October in the taking and holding of hostages. We know, UNRWA employees in Gaza have participated in it. This is not a trivial risk, this is a real risk. And at a time when our Jewish community feels under more siege than ever before in a generation in this country where they feel unsafe. I can tell you from the ones I spoke to just last night, they are deeply anxious about this decision of the government, and they are not convinced that these security checks have been adequate, and I share their concerns.
KARVELAS: 2000 visas have been issued, but just 334 people have actually arrived because of the difficulty in getting out of Gaza. Are you exaggerating the extent of the problem?
PATERSON: There's obviously logistical issues getting out of Gaza. You have to get the agreement of the Egyptian government to cross the border at Rafah as one obstacle. And you're right, only 300 have come so far. But that means there's 1900 or so have eligibility to come at any time, and there's no obstacle to them coming from the Australian government point of view, only a logistical one in the region. So we should not grant a visa to anyone that we are not confident. Our first duty as Australian government officials is to protect Australians and provide security, and we should also have humanitarian obligations as well, which we should fulfil, but not before our obligation to protect the Australian people.
KARVELAS: You say that you do have faith in security agencies, so why are you questioning whether they can do this in a way that ensures the safety and cohesion of Australians then?
PATERSON: Because I think they've been given an impossible task, they've been asked to give a tourist visa, grant a tourist visa and do all the necessary checks to do so in just a day on average, and in some cases in an hour. And I don't understand how you could do the adequate security and privacy and identity checks necessary to make sure that these people-
KARVELAS: Well they're saying they can.
PATERSON: Well, I haven't heard that evidence from them.
KARVELAS: So you want to hear from Home Affairs? If Home Affairs was to come out and say? We're fine, we think we can do this.
PATERSON: I've already challenged Home Affairs with this in Senate estimates, and I was not confident based on the answers they gave me. It did not fill me with confidence, and I think anybody who sees the footage of those questions would agree.
KARVELAS: Obviously, we are in a very, very volatile situation on the ground. There could be a ground invasion in Rafah where, you know, people. What is it? Up to? 1.4 million people are in this tiny area. If I can sort of get outside of that and just go to the heart part of this, that's unthinkable, isn't it? Don't you need to be a humanitarian government that tries to help people in that dire circumstance?
PATERSON: These are deeply troubling circumstances, Patricia. There's no doubt about it. And, many people are rightly very worried about what will take place in the coming days and weeks. Of course, the best thing that could be done to avert that is for Hamas to release the hostages. That's an option available to them, has been available to them for three months. And if they are genuinely concerned about the welfare of the people of Gaza, they should do that. You're right, as I've said many times in this interview and in others, we have a humanitarian need here. Australia can play a role in that, a small role consistent with our size and our distance from the region and a role that, you know, there are others in the region that can play too. But Australia granting tourist visas quickly is not going to change the circumstances on the ground in Rafah.
KARVELAS: Just on that ground incursion that looms. Obviously, it hasn't happened yet. I just want to get some clarity on your position because the government has warned, as you know, Penny Wong and the Prime Minister in a joint statement, that they urged Israel not to do it. Do you also urge Israel not to go into Rafah?
PATERSON: Israel's got a legitimate military objective here, which is to free their hostages and destroy the terrorist organisation that launched the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust in a single day. And I think we should be careful, from the distance in Australia, doing, you know, Monday morning quarterbacking on, the operational and military tactics. They've got a legitimate military objective here. But I've also said consistently that the reason why I support Israel, is Israel is a liberal democracy, and we expect Israel to behave like a liberal democracy and to do everything it can to minimise civilian casualties as it pursues its legitimate military objective.
KARVELAS: Just on another issue, before I let you go, since I have you in the studio, I like to take my opportunities. 39 asylum seekers have been transferred to Nauru. The Home Affairs Minister has refused to rule out bringing asylum seekers to the mainland for medical treatment. Do you accept that may have to happen?
PATERSON: Well, that's the law of the land. With the medivac legislation that passed, in a previous parliament.
KARVELAS: Under your government
PATERSON: Yes, but against the wishes of my government, you might remember.
KARVELAS: But you lost control of the floor.
PATERSON: We did. We had people cross the floor and vote for legislation. That's how it passed. But we warned at the time that people who were granted medical leave to come to Australia would seek to stay in Australia, and that's been proven correct. There are people who came under that legislation, who refused to leave. And unfortunately, I'm concerned that that could happen again. I'm concerned that under this government, the same thing could happen.
KARVELAS: Okay. These asylum seekers landed on a remote stretch of WA beach, but they were detected by local indigenous communities who had a drone from Bunnings. So obviously, this is one case to say that the government's lost control of the borders is overreach, isn't it?
PATERSON: Well, it's the second case in just three months of a boat making it all the way to the Australian mainland and then leaving again. Now, this is virtually unheard of and virtually unprecedented in the last decade. And it's an extraordinary failure of maritime surveillance. And we know why that's the case. There's been a 20% drop in the aerial surveillance of our maritime approaches, and a 12% drop on the on sea days conducted by the Australian Border Force.
KARVELAS: And that's about staffing, we've learned.
PATERSON: Yep. Staffing and maintenance of aircraft and other equipment. The Border Force Commissioner, Michael Outram, admitted to me in Senate estimates last year that Border Force is stretched. And so I have to really wonder why the government is proposing in their budget to reduce border protection funding over the forward estimates by cumulatively $600 million, based on the last, budget in May. That's an extraordinary proposal to put forward at a time when we're having boats come again. Your listeners might be surprised to know there has been 12 boats attempt to come to Australia since the election, they've been 300 people attempt to make that journey. And two boats have made it successfully, and they've wandered into remote townships and communities and been identified before Border Force found them. I think that is a shocking failure.
KARVELAS: Thanks for joining us.
PATERSON: Thank you.
ENDS
