January 29, 2024
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Shadow Home Affairs Minister. Senator James Paterson is our guest this morning. Senator, welcome.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning. Patricia.
KARVELAS: Why do you support Labor's move to halt funding to UNRWA?
PATERSON: Because no Australian taxpayer dollars should ever go to aiding and abetting a terrorist cause. Hamas is a listed of a terrorist organisation in its entirety in Australia, and it is unconscionable that even $1 of Australian taxpayers’ money could potentially be going to benefit them. Unfortunately, now for a number of years, there are well-documented concerns about the activity of UNRWA, from things including anti-Semitic content and terrorist glorification in textbooks taught in UNRWA's schools to allegations that their money has been siphoned off by Hamas to be used to build their terrorist tunnels. And now, most seriously, that UNRWA employees were directly involved in the October 7th attacks on Israel, the worst loss of Jewish life since the end of the Holocaust.
KARVELAS: Okay, but we know that there are allegations against some 12 or 13 members. There are 13,000 people who work for UNRWA. And the organisation has said it will take action on those accused members. So isn't that the way you deal with it, rather than collectively punishing the entire organisation?
PATERSON: Well, it's welcome that UNRWA has announced the investigation, but these, of course, are not the first allegations made against UNRWA and UNRWA in the past has not, in my view, adequately responded to allegations. For example, it has continued to distribute textbooks which have anti-Semitic content and content which glorifies terrorism into schools in Gaza, where it is taught to young children who then grow up and learn a hatred for the Jewish people, which makes the peace process impossible. UNRWA's inadequate responses to allegations like that in the past mean that we cannot have
confidence that this investigation that they've announced will be sufficient, and I think it is very prudent by the Albanese government to finally pause this, although I note, that they ignored warnings in their announcement of this extra $6 million of funding two weeks ago, including a letter from Jewish community leaders on the 19th of December, which precisely warned that this kind of thing was happening and now the government has effectively acknowledged that that's true by putting a pause on this funding.
KARVELAS: So when you say you support what they're doing, although you have criticised them as well. It's a temporary pause. What does temporary mean? How long should it last in your view?
PATERSON: Well, the Albanese government can explain its own decision making and what it plans to do with it. But in my view, there's a genuine humanitarian need in Gaza. The Australian government does have a role to play in alleviating that humanitarian need, and it is appropriate for us to make contributions. But we have to be absolutely rigorous in ensuring that Australian taxpayer dollars does not end up funding a terrorist organisation, particularly not one which is continuing to wage war on Israel and has vowed to repeat the atrocities of the 7th October again and again and again. No Australian would be comfortable with our funds or our support, effectively adding that cause.
KARVELAS: So you haven't answered my question on the temporary nature of it. When do you accept that the funding should flow again to UNRWA?
PATERSON: Well, I thought I did answer that by saying it's the Albanese government's decision to pause it, it's up to them to say, but let me add to that.
KARVELAS: What's your view, though?
PATERSON: Well, let me add to that, that I think that we need to get to the bottom of these allegations and until UNRWA is able to provide satisfactory answers on whether or not its employees were involved in these attacks, then I think it should continue to be paused. And, of course, there were elements of these allegations already in the public realm for a number of weeks. That's what led Jewish community leaders to write to the government. There were allegations that a UNRWA teacher was involved in holding an Israeli hostage early on, after the 7th of October, that was not adequately investigated and remains unresolved. And it is an example of the way in which we have to be sceptical about the claims made in the defence of UNRWA, because in the past they haven't adequately dealt with serious allegations.
KARVELAS: So given you say in the past I haven't adequately dealt with allegations, does that mean you have no confidence in them dealing with these?
PATERSON: Well, as soon as the Foreign Minister announced the extra $6 million for funding to UNRWA on her trip to the Middle East two weeks ago, the opposition, myself included, said we were very concerned that this money could be misspent, and were concerned that the Albanese government had not put in place sufficient measures to protect the use of those funds. And we were deeply concerned that the Foreign Minister's apparent only plan to make sure it wasn't misspent was to raise it with the Palestinian Authority Prime Minister, who of course, has no authority at all in Gaza and hasn't for almost 20 years.
KARVELAS: So how is aid going to go in if UNRWA is now being removed from the equation?
PATERSON: Well, there are other aid groups that are operating in the region, including the Red Cross and Red Crescent. Australia has provided donations to them in the past, and we could continue to funnel our support through them.
KARVELAS: So you're saying the money should go to the Red Cross now instead? Should that 6 million be redirected to the Red Cross?
PATERSON: That's one possible solution of continuing to provide aid in a way that minimises the risk of it being spent and handed over to a terrorist organisation, which I think would be unconscionable.
KARVELAS: The International Court of Justice has ordered Israel to take all measures to prevent genocide in Gaza. Do you do you urge Israel to take the steps ordered by this court?
PATERSON: I think South Africa and other advocates of the action at the ICJ will be disappointed by the rulings because, notably, the ICJ did not declare that Israel is committing a genocide. It did not order a cease fire. It did order that Hamas, immediately and unconditionally release the hostages that they took on the 7th of October. And it also called on Israel to conduct its future military operations consistent with international law, minimising civilian casualties and facilitating the flow of aid. It is not the declaration of genocide or the order for a ceasefire that South Africa was seeking and many advocates were seeking. We have said all along that we believe that Israel is a liberal democracy, and we hold it to the standard of a liberal democracy, and we want it to conduct its conflicts consistent with that. But we also recognise it's an extremely difficult thing to root out a terrorist organisation which has embedded themselves in civilian areas.
KARVELAS: The Greens are calling on the Albanese government to place sanctions on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his cabinet. Now these include bans on travel and financial sanctions, given the ICJ ruling. Should the government consider them?
PATERSON: Absolutely not. That's an utterly absurd request by the Greens, I'll note they haven't made the same request to target Hamas leaders as an example. And I think that reflects on their stand on this issue. I mean, they could not even bring themselves to vote with the rest of the Parliament in the immediate aftermath of the 7th of October, to condemn Hamas for its atrocities against Israel and the Jewish people. I think they can be safely ignored when it comes to this conversation.
KARVELAS: You mentioned elements of the ICJ ruling, but the ICJ ruling also said that there could be a plausible case that genocide is occurring. Does that worry you?
PATERSON: Well, the ICJ has made interim orders which effectively seek to preserve the status quo, while the longer and more ongoing case is resolved, which might take a number of years, as previous ICJ cases have. I mean, the opposition has clearly stated, as has the United States and Canada and the United Kingdom and other like minded partners around the world that we do not believe that Israel is committing genocide, and we do not believe that South Africa's application to the ICJ is appropriate. Nonetheless, we support the ICJ and the work that it does. But Israel is not conducting a genocide, they are conducting a defensive war against a terrorist organisation which has vowed to wipe them off the map and killed the most Jews on a single day since the end of the Holocaust. It is a defensible and appropriate military strategy to seek to remove that threat. No democracy would tolerate that existential threat on its borders in perpetuity.
KARVELAS: I want to just move to another issue, which emerged in a big way over the weekend. Intelligence agencies have been warning for years about the dangers posed by far-right groups in Australia. Do the scenes on Australia Day of masked neo-Nazis surging onto a train in Sydney suggest not enough has been done.
PATERSON: They were very disturbing images. They would be at any time, but they are particularly disturbing in the current geopolitical climate, and I know strikes even more fear in the heart of the Jewish community than they were already suffering under. And we cannot see the same kind of inaction that we've seen from the New South Wales government and the federal government in relation to the Islamic hate preachers who've targeted the Jewish community, none of whom have been charged. I would like to see swift and decisive action taken against these neo-Nazi groups who have no place in a modern Australia.
KARVELAS: But what does it demonstrate about what's going on?
PATERSON: Well, it demonstrates that, there is hatred in our community, and that bubbling beneath the surface for many years was a very, damaging strain of anti-Semitism, which has reared its ugly head in the most dramatic fashion possible. I never thought we would see it in such a demonstrable way in a tolerant, pluralistic country like Australia. It's the reason why the federal Parliament before Christmas, went to the extraordinary step of passing laws to ban Nazi symbols being publicly displayed, to ban the Nazi salute. And it's critically important that those laws are rigorously enforced so that people understand there are consequences for this action.
KARVELAS: Just before I do, say goodbye, obviously, the stage three tax cut changes have been the source of some, discussions in the last few days. The business lobby is arguing and will ask the Fair Work Commission to reduce the size of this year's increase in the minimum wage. On the basis of the tax cut. Do you think those two things should be linked?
PATERSON: The Fair Work Commission is independent, and it sets the rates of pay based on a range of submissions and economic factors. That's really a matter for them. I'm more concerned about the Prime Minister's flagrant, broken promise and lies.
KARVELAS: But on the substantive issue that workers should get, a lower wage because they'll be getting this tax cut under the Albanese government. Is that something that you philosophically agree with?
PATERSON: Well, we won't be making a submission to the Fair Work Commission process. It's an independent process and it's an umpire that will make decisions about wages as is appropriate. It should take into account the normal factors like, inflation and other impacts on the cost of living and the affordability of any pay rises.
KARVELAS: Thanks for joining us.
PATERSON: Thank you.
ENDS
