August 13, 2024
ANDY PARK: Let me ask you how much support for Hamas is too much support? That's the question the government is grappling with as it goes about establishing a permanent visa scheme for people fleeing the war in Gaza. Thousands of Palestinians have had their visas denied, and pressure is growing on the government to establish an alternative visa pathway. This week on Insiders, as the head of ASIO, Mike Burgess, suggested it's only financial or material support for Hamas that should lead someone to have their visa denied.
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MIKE BURGESS: If they're giving financial support or material aid, that can be a problem, and obviously we take each case on its merits and in the context of the information we have before us.
DAVID SPEERS: But if it's just rhetorical support.
BURGESS: If it's just rhetorical support, and they don't have an ideology or support for a violent extremism ideology, then that's not a problem.
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PARK: ASIO Director-General Mike Burgess there. Well, the opposition has a different perspective on this. Senator James Paterson is the Coalition's [Home] affairs spokesperson. Welcome back to drive, Senator.
JAMES PATERSON: Great to be with you.
PARK: What did you make of the ASIO boss's rationale there?
PATERSON: Well, Mike Burgess is the Director-General of ASIO. He's an intelligence agency head. He doesn't set policy. It's just his job to administer the policy as directed by government and I don't have any criticism or disagreement with Mike Burgess. He perfectly and accurately described what the current arrangements are. But I don't think the current arrangements are something that should be welcome. I think they should be changed. I think the government should send a very clear message that no one who supports Hamas is welcome in Australia. Think about all the challenges we've had with anti-Semitism, with social cohesion. We've just had the terrorism threat level increased. None of those problems become easier by bringing people to Australia who support terrorism.
PARK: For many people in Gaza who are under attack from Israel in a conflict which has killed around 40,000 Palestinians, Hamas is the only authority they have or had. It runs the government, the hospitals and so on. Isn't there a possibility people might be supportive of the need to resist Israel's occupation, which the UN and its top court has said is illegal, without supporting the violent attacks on October 7th?
PATERSON: Yes, it is possible that you could be a peaceful supporter of Palestinian self-determination and an opponent of using violent means to achieve those objectives. And if you are, then there should be no barrier to you coming to Australia and being welcome in Australia. Many Australians are peaceful supporters of Palestinian self-determination. But if you support an organisation that carried out the worst atrocities against the Jewish people since the Holocaust, where 1,200 people were murdered in a single day, hundreds were taken captive, including children, women were raped, then I don't think that's the sort of person we want to welcome to our country.
PARK: So then the next question is going to be how. How we ascertain that this person feels in those ways that we will find acceptable to Australian society.
PATERSON: Well, it's up to the visa screening process to clear these things. I have great faith in our operational agencies in the Department of Home Affairs and ASIO, that if there is evidence that people are supportive of Hamas, if they've expressed support for Hamas, for example, on social media, then that is one good indicator that they are a supporter of Hamas and they should not come to our country.
PARK: Mike Burgess' comments are echoed by a former ASIO boss, Dennis Richardson, who says the Palestinian refugees who support Hamas should not be automatically excluded from Australia. These are people who ultimately make the call about how to keep Australians safe. Do you accept that the current and former head of ASIO are better placed to decide whether these people are a risk than perhaps you are?
PATERSON: Well, in the case of the current Director-General, Mike Burgess, he doesn't set policy and would never seek to set policy. He often says that that's a role for politicians and I am playing the role of a politician, which is to advocate for policy. With respect to Dennis Richardson, I don't agree. If you look at what has happened in our country in the last nine months, since the 7th of October, we have seen unprecedented levels of anti-Semitism. We've seen unprecedented challenges to social cohesion. The Prime Minister is obviously concerned about that, because he's appointed Peter Khalil as a special envoy for social cohesion. How is social cohesion or anti-Semitism going to become better by bringing in people who support Hamas? And let's remember that Australia is a highly attractive destination. There are millions of people all around the world who want to come here. We can't welcome them all. And so therefore, we can afford to be selective about who we bring to Australia. And my question is, surely we can find better people to come and strengthen our country than those who support a terrorist organization?
PARK: The government is reportedly close to finalising a new special visa pathway for Palestinians to permanently migrate to Australia. Would you support clarifying their status in that way?
PATERSON: Well, only if there are sufficient security, identity and character checks, and only if the government can provide an assurance to the Australian people that no one will be able to permanently stay in Australia if they are a supporter of Hamas. The government has been very confused on this issue from the very beginning. They gave these people tourist visas, temporary visitor visas and a condition of a temporary visitor visa is that you intend to return to your country of origin. But the Minister, Tony Burke, has now said that these people have never had any prospect of returning to Gaza, in which case, why were they granted tourism visas if the intention was for them to permanently migrate? The government's also said that all the security checks took place, all the character checks took place, but in many cases after the visas were issued, they were subsequently cancelled on security advice. So it can't be the case that sufficient security checks took place at the start in this unseemly rush. And I think it is putting Australians at risk.
PARK: Senator James Paterson is the Coalition's [Home] affairs spokesperson. Thanks for your time this afternoon, Senator.
PATERSON: Thank you.
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