February 29, 2024
PARK: Joining me now is Senator James Paterson, the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, welcome to RN Drive.
PATERSON: Good to be with you.
PARK: Your leader, Peter Dutton, has also come out in support of Joe Hockey's statement from this morning. But you don't believe these individuals should be named. Why is that?
PATERSON: Well, what I've said is that it would be unreasonable to ask Mike Burgess to name him and name the person outside of parliamentary privilege, because he could be immediately sued for defamation. And if he was sued for defamation, in order to defend himself, he would have to prove that the allegation was true, and that might require him to rely on confidential sources and methods and there's obviously good reason why he shouldn't do that. Having said that, there's nothing to stop the government disclosing this, and the government has the benefit of the protection of parliamentary privilege. So the Minister for Home Affairs or any other minister who's aware of these facts could walk into the chamber right now and disclose these facts. And I understand why there's a strong demand for them to do so.
PARK: So why aren't they?
PATERSON: Well, only they can answer that question.
PARK: Joe Hockey says it's imperative the person is identified because they could have been, for example, in national security meetings or speaking with ministers on sensitive matters. That's a matter of accountability and transparency, if you like, that we know who this person is. Do you think the average taxpayer would expect that they are named?
PATERSON: Oh, I'm sure that most Australians would think they should be named because otherwise there hasn't been any direct consequences for this person. ASIO has said, and I believe them, that they have successfully disrupted this, and that person is no longer undertaking those activities, and that's welcome. But normally when you commit a serious offence like this, there are consequences. The only reason why that hasn't happened in this case is because it was before the Parliament passed espionage and foreign interference laws in 2018. Had those laws been in place earlier, or had they been retrospective, that person would be before the docks and would face very serious penalties, as they should.
PARK: Do you know who this individual is?
PATERSON: I have a rough idea, yeah.
PARK: I mean, Peter Dutton this morning said he'd put money on it being an ex-Labor politician from New South Wales. Is that your information?
PATERSON: I wouldn't speculate on that, it's not appropriate.
PARK: So why is your leader doing that?
PATERSON: Well, Peter Dutton has said that he doesn't know who the person is, and I'm in a different position.
PARK: ASIO boss Mike Burgess has also declined to name the country involved. Separately to the sort of domestic defamation legal matters as to the individual, is that more relevant to the public discourse, do you think?
PATERSON: Well, I'm happy to say, stepping aside from this specific example, that espionage and foreign interference is our number one security threat, and China is the number one source of that threat, and it is daylight second before any other countries. So people can infer from that what they like. We should be very clear-eyed that the Chinese Communist Party is systemically trying to intervene in our democracy at every opportunity.
PARK: Shadow Home Affairs Minister James Paterson is with me. We're talking about the extraordinary revelations made last night by ASIO boss Mike Burgess over a former politician recruited by a foreign power. Have you been briefed by ASIO, or will you seek a briefing on the full extent of this person's actions?
PATERSON: ASIO, as a matter of course, appears before the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security in a classified setting and we will have opportunities to ask questions about this if we wish.
PARK: So can you understand where this person was operating at least, or what kind of information that they were exposed to?
PATERSON: Well, Mike Burgess had said they were seeking secret information about the Australian government to pass on to a foreign government, and he hasn't attributed who that foreign government is, but we can all make an educated guess about that. It's very clear that they were involved in a delegation to a foreign country, that there were academics on that delegation, that there were aspiring future politicians as part of that delegation and that there was a very aggressive recruitment and cultivation exercise that occurred when they were in that country that was conducted by a foreign intelligence agency.
PARK: As to the timing, why did it take ASIO this long to reveal this information? This alleged plot was operated for some years before 2018, this is before foreign interference laws were passed. Do you think it's likely they've recently closed an investigation to this person and found that there wasn't enough to charge?
PATERSON: Look, I don't speak for the intelligence community or ASIO, but I suspect that it reflects a concern in the intelligence community that as a country, we are not taking this threat as seriously as we should. And some complacency has set in and perhaps some naivete which we need to be shaken out of. I mean, the Director-General has said for three years in a row that espionage and foreign interference is our number one security concern, and yet people are surprised that a politician has betrayed our national interests. Well, that's exactly what he means when he says that. And so obviously it was necessary to be more specific to get that message through, because we are living in a very contested security environment, a very contested strategic environment. And people are every day looking to exploit opportunities and one of the best defences to that is awareness about it, which I think is what he was trying to do.
PARK: To your point, in separate cases, it's being reported today that Alex Turnbull, the son of former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull, has previously rejected an approach by suspected Chinese agents who apparently immediately reported it to spy agencies. Meanwhile, Melbourne businessman and former Liberal candidate Di Sanh Duong has today been jailed over an attempt to influence former federal minister Alan Tudge. Tudge hasn't been implicated in any wrongdoing and there's no suggestion he was influenced there. But the judge presiding over this case said he didn't see a link with the ASIO story today. But what does this say about the state of our politics? How many people could there be like this amongst the political ranks as we speak?
PATERSON: Well I strongly welcome the court's sentence handed down in the Sunny Duong case today, because it does send a very strong message that now that those laws are in place, there are very serious criminal penalties. If you engage in this conduct and everyone is on notice that if you try that, that we will find you and we'll track you down and you'll be jailed, as we should. And I think politicians need to be very aware the approach that you get might not be an obvious one. It might not be from a stereotypical person that you would assume is behind a foreign interference plot, it might be someone that you know. But if it's unusual, if it's persistent, if they're seeking things which are not public, and if you think it could advantage a foreign adversary, then there's a very good chance it is someone acting on behalf of a foreign state and you should report that to ASIO.
PARK: James Paterson, the opposition [Home Affairs] spokesperson. Appreciate your time. Thank you.
PATERSON: Thank you.
ENDS
