November 5, 2024
MATTHEW PANTELIS: Alright, let's talk to shadow Home Affairs Minister, Senator James Paterson. Senator, good morning.
JAMES PATERSON: Good to be with you, Matthew.
PANTELIS: This is concerning. We've heard about this for well, for a while, of course, because some countries have gone down the path of banning these cars for sale.
PATERSON: That's right, including our closest ally, the United States. They've implemented not only tariffs on Chinese made EVs, but an effective ban on internet connected Chinese made vehicles because they regard the national and cyber security threat posed by these vehicles as so serious that the only way to protect Americans from it is to ban it totally.
PANTELIS: Should we follow suit in Australia? I mean, are we that concerned? We have banned Huawei for instance, from being on our telecom towers, is this a similar sort of issue?
PATERSON: My first preference is not to ban them because I don't think we need to restrict Australians’ choice. But what we do need to do is implement strict mandatory minimum cyber security standards that apply to all car makers, including Chinese EVs. We need to set a high standard that we say we want people to meet if they want to sell cars in Australia and it's up to car makers wherever they are in the world to meet that high standard. Now, some might have more ease in meeting those standards than others, but that would be revealing in and of itself.
PANTELIS: Is a sort of a bit paranoid to think our cars are spying on behalf of a different government, on us, spying on us?
PATERSON: I appreciate how it does sound like that, but I asked the Department of Home Affairs officials about this yesterday, and they stepped through, in a very sober way, the national security threats that these vehicles can pose. The important way to think about it is that a connected EV vehicle is basically a computer on wheels. And what that allows it to do, according to Home Affairs, is listen to the occupants inside the car, track the movements of the car throughout a city or state, collect the video which is being recorded outside the vehicle and things that you drive around, and also compromise any devices that are plugged into the vehicle, for example, your phone. And the stunning thing about these revelations last night in Senate estimates was despite briefing the Minister for Home Affairs and Cyber Security about these risks on multiple occasions, the minister himself drives a Chinese made EV. And I think that's incredibly reckless.
PANTELIS: As a minister you mean? So potentially state secrets getting out. That's your concern?
PATERSON: Well, this is his personal vehicle, and driving around in a Chinese EV is effectively like driving around in a Chinese listening device. Given the advice we have been given by Home Affairs it's astonishing to me that the Minister for Home Affairs is prepared to run that risk and isn't prepared just to change to a non-Chinese made vehicle or EV that would eliminate that risk.
PANTELIS: All right. Should this be extended to other vehicles? Because there's a whole range of vehicles and manufacturers from different countries where once you plug in your iPhone and your contacts and everything else, your phone conversations as a result and no doubt where you go as well with GPS, is all tracked and logged and sent back to the manufacturer. Toyota do it for instance. Other car manufacturers do it. Should this come under general privacy rulings that we have already, so that this information shouldn't be collected?
PATERSON: Home Affairs were clear that the risk is higher when it comes to Chinese made EVs because the Chinese government is Australia's number one source of foreign interference, espionage and state backed cyber attacks. But yes, it is true other car manufacturers also collect this data and transmit it back to their owners for legitimate diagnostic or analysis purposes. And so that's why I advocate setting a high mandatory minimum cybersecurity standard that applies to all car makers, regardless of their nation of origin. But we should recognise there is this elevated risk from China. In fact, China themselves recognised that because the Chinese government has banned these vehicles from going anywhere near sensitive national security sites in their own country. If they know more about it than anyone else in the world and if they regard it as a security risk, I think we should take it seriously.
PANTELIS: All right. So what should happen next? What would you like the government to do specifically in this regard?
PATERSON: Well, there is legislation before the Parliament right now, which would give the Minister for Home Affairs the power to set these minimum cyber security standards. So as soon as that legislation is passed, which we're expecting it to in the next couple of weeks. I want the Minister to put out those standards and raise that bar to be high for all carmakers to reach. But frankly, also the minister needs to look in his own backyard first and stop driving around in a Chinese made EV, which poses these risks that his own department has warned him about.
PANTELIS: Would a Coalition government go any further in the future if you were elected at the next poll?
PATERSON: It's not my preference to go any further. I don't think a ban is the right approach for Australia. We would of course always follow the advice of our national security and intelligence agencies. But I think the starting point is, set these high mandatory minimum cyber standards and everyone has to meet it.
PANTELIS: All right. Senator James Paterson, thanks for your time.
PATERSON: Thank you.
ENDS
