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October 11, 2023
LUKE GRANT: We spent nearly all of the program yesterday, didn't we, talking about this abomination of a protest in Sydney, this disgraceful protest. You know, I've been listening to much of the commentary today. Did we refer to the protesters as pro-Palestinian or pro-Hamas? That's an intriguing question for me. We learned during the day from the Police Minister, who I've said for some time is inept and is probably found herself in a job she can't do. That she was in constant contact with the police commissioner, and that's great. Good that they had a conversation, maybe they swapped, I don't know, stories from the old days, but what I didn't stop was that abomination of a protest. We invited Sydney's Jewish community to the Opera House. We lit it up in the colours of the Israeli flag. And in doing all of that, we indicated, Come on down, Look at this. Share your story. Support each other. But it turned out to be something very different. Now you've heard my views long and loud, no doubt. But I want to go somewhere else this morning and get the opinion of Senator James Paterson. We speak to the senator from time to time. He's really good on issues of security online, as well. He's a shadow minister, amongst other things, for home affairs, and he joins me on the line. Senator, thank you for your time.
JAMES PATERSON: Always good to be with you Luke.
GRANT: Thank you, James. You saw what happened. How did it leave you feeling?
PATERSON: These were very distressing and troubling and disturbing scenes in Sydney on Monday night. It is not what our country looks like, normally. It's not how our country behaves. It is not something that any of us should accept is the new normal or tolerable. It must never happen again. And in fact, countries around the world, like in France, where they lit up the Eiffel Tower in Germany, where they lit up the Bundestag in the United States where they lit up the White House in the United Kingdom, where they lit up Number Ten, were all able to carry out meaningful tributes and memorials for those people who died in Israel without any of these scenes. But Sydney was not. And that is a black mark against our country, and we must fix it.
GRANT: Yeah, exactly. And let's hope that it's not repeated from activities from Melbourne, of course, on Tuesday night. Rishi Sunak, the UK PM, actually attended a synagogue and delivered his speech. I want to ask you, where is our political leadership on this?
PATERSON: Well, I thought Rishi Sunak's leadership has been outstanding this week on these issues and he spoke incredibly movingly and powerfully and I think he deserves credit for it. Unfortunately, we've had some mixed leadership here in Australia. I was disappointed that the Prime Minister, when he made his first comments about the rally in Sydney, seemed ill informed about what happened and wasn't able therefore to call it out for what it was and had to organise another interview later in the day to call it out more clearly. That's not good enough from our Prime Minister. But unfortunately we've seen that from other political leaders as well, including your State Attorney-General in New South Wales, who was grossly ill informed when he did an interview on that issue. The bare minimum we can expect from political leaders when they're talking about these issues as they're informed about what is happening and then they demonstrate moral clarity and leadership. Terrorism against an innocent civilians wherever it takes place in the world is morally repugnant and it should not happen. And if you can't call that out, well, then you are a disappointment as a political leader and I'm sorry to say, some of the federal MP's you have there in Western Sydney, in New South Wales have failed that test. And in particular, Tony Burke and Chris Bowen have really failed to call this out. Even when asked all Chris Bowen was able to say was that he agreed with what the Prime Minister said. He refused to put in his own words how he felt about the attack on those innocent civilians in Israel, and I think that is cowardice.
GRANT: You just said something there, moral clarity. I mean, we're getting we got that from Bill Shorten to some extent, but apart from Bill and maybe one or two others in government, you know, it's a very good question. Where is the moral clarity?
PATERSON: Well, I agree with you. Look, there are some good people in the Labor Party who are strong supporters of Israel and have been able to call out terrorism in really clear terms. Bill Shorten is one of them and I pay credit to him. Richard Marles, the Deputy Prime Minister, is another. He and I both spoke at a function for the Jewish community in Melbourne on Monday night and he spoke very movingly and very sincerely about his support for the Jewish community and I pay credit to him and all the other Labor MP's who have been able to do that. But there are some of the Labor MP's who at every opportunity bash Israel, at every opportunity, attack Israel, but have been curiously absent and curiously silent on this. And I really hope they are now not pandering to their constituents who have anti-Israel and in some cases anti-Semitic views.
GRANT: So that's the left of the Labor Party, is it not? Is that the cohort within the government that has a problem with Israel and is very supportive of the Palestinians?
PATERSON: Look, I wish it was only the Labor Left. Historically, it has been the Labor Left for many years who've taken anti-Israel positions, including, I regret to say, the Prime Minister himself, who in previous incarnations as a backbencher and a shadow minister, has said some very strong things against Israel, which has been deeply disappointing to the Jewish community. But actually today some of the biggest problems are in the Labor right faction in New South Wales and Chris Bowen and Tony Burke, both of whom fancy themselves as future leaders of the Labor Party and Prime Minister of this country, are in the right faction of the Labor Party. I honestly wonder what is the purpose of the right faction if it can't even stand up for a liberal democracy in the Middle East defending itself against terrorism? I think they have let down previous leaders of their movement, people like Bob Hawke, who would have known exactly what to say on something like this.
GRANT: That comes back to moral clarity. That doesn't even become an issue for you and I to talk about if there's moral clarity. And of course, as you rightly point out, there's not been. Help me understand this. I'm probably not as libertarian as you. Well, as I remember, you were kicked around in Melbourne a couple of times. ten or so years ago because the reality of life faces you from time to time, but it should be able to say nearly everything, but hate speech is a different thing isn't? And what we saw last night using words like gas and others I won't mention here that that is purely James, is it not? That's just hate speech, isn't it?
PATERSON: Look, you will not find a stronger defender on Federal Parliament on freedom of speech than me. I am deeply committed to this fundamental principle of a free society. But even free speech advocates like me have limits. And one of those limits is advocacy and incitement to violence. Nearly everyone agrees that that is a line that should not be crossed. This is not just about upsetting people or hurting their feelings or offending them. This is about inciting people to commit acts of violence and I think we've seen that in this week in Australia, and that's a terrible thing. We've seen people celebrate the Hamas attacks. I think New South Wales police should look very closely about whether that meets the legal threshold for incitement to violence, because it appears to me does. It's not just any sort of incitement of violence, it's incitement of violence based on people's religion and their heritage. And that is appalling.
GRANT: When something like this happens internationally and it has, you know, obviously very widespread effects on populations all over the world, shouldn't we be getting something like National Cabinet together or the Security Council or something that says, righto, where does this leave us? What's our position? Shouldn't there be that level of meeting going on in Canberra at well before now, I would suggest.
PATERSON: Well, there were reports this week that the National Security Committee of Cabinet has not met in relation to this crisis and I hope those reports are wrong and I hope if they're right, that the Prime Minister very quickly convenes one. That is the place in which the senior ministers of the government who have security portfolios are briefed by our intelligence and security agencies to make sure they are on top of the issues and to make sure that any decisions need to be made, are informed or can be made swiftly and acted upon. And unfortunately, there is good reason to believe that we will see threats to the Jewish community here in Australia because we have in the past, when there's been conflict in the Middle East, in particular in the crisis with Hezbollah in 2006, there were some horrific attacks on Jewish Australians and on Jewish symbols, including synagogues and schools and other things and unfortunately, in the protests we've seen this week, I fear that we will see the same again and we need leadership from the federal government on this. It is not good enough to not be on top of this. They need to be leading on this and making sure that all the resources have been put into stopping that from happening in this country.
GRANT: Good to talk to you. Thanks so much, James.
PATERSON: Thanks for having me.
GRANT: Our pleasure. Senator James Paterson, shadow minister for Home Affairs.
ENDS
