January 22, 2025
LAURA JAYES: Let's go live to the shadow Minister for Home Affairs, James Paterson, now. James, thanks so much for your time. We will get to the Sue Lines matter in a moment. But first, this spectre that's been raised by the AFP Commissioner Reece Kershaw, that overseas actors might be taking some part in what we've seen at home, and this is an increase in antisemitic attacks. What are your initial thoughts on that?
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning, Laura. Well, they are incredibly serious claims that have been made and they need to be substantiated. More information needs to be provided because it has struck fear in the heart of the Jewish community who now believe that they are the targets of either a transnational terrorist organisation or a nation state engaging in state sponsored terror in Australia. And the Prime Minister and Tony Burke's dismissal of questions about this this morning is just not good enough. You cannot put a claim out there like that with very little detail or substantiation and give very little comfort to the community about what is being done to protect them. It would be one of the most grave security crises in Australia in peacetime, if it is the case that we have state sponsored or terrorist sponsored terror in our country.
JAYES: Reece Kershaw knows what he's doing. He's the head of the AFP. What the Prime Minister said this morning was he's going to leave it to the AFP. But that's not acceptable to you?
PATERSON: No, it's not acceptable. The Prime Minister has not said whether he was briefed on this, when he was briefed on this, whether the national security committee of cabinet has met, whether our intelligence agencies have been bought into this, whether he has discussed this with our Five Eyes partners and what action he is taking. If it is indeed true that we had a foreign sponsored campaign of terror against the Jewish community in our country, also yet to be explained is why it appears that so far, Australia is unique in being on the receiving end of this. There's been no claims and no evidence put forward that, for example, the United States or the United Kingdom or any other like minded countries have a foreign sponsored terrorist campaign on their soil. And so given the extraordinary nature of these claims, given the fear that it strikes in the heart of the community, the Prime Minister does need to be more upfront about what he knew, when he knew it, and what he's done about it.
JAYES: Okay. But Reece Kershaw could have deployed this as a tactic, could he not? This could be part of the investigation.
PATERSON: Well, that would be a very interesting approach to a police investigation. It is not the usual practice to put out partial unconfirmed information about possible motives or suspects. And it would be up to the AFP to explain if that is their rationale. That's not what they've said.
JAYES: Is it a possibility that we're making the leap here by saying there are overseas actors, to saying that that is kind of an organised terrorist organisation or, you know, something state-sponsored? Could it just be that there is, you know, some kind of payment going through to local criminals?
PATERSON: Yes Laura. But who would be making these payments, and why would they be doing so? A random civilian is making payments to criminals in Australia to blow up sites in the Jewish community? I mean, that would be inexplicable and very hard to understand. Also in the police statement was the observation that they believe that it is criminal actors who might be being paid to do this and they may be receiving payment in cryptocurrency and they may be using encrypted communications platforms to communicate. Now, those are interesting claims also, which have not yet been proven and which evidence has not been provided for. But if that is the case, that would also be consistent with the tradecraft and the methodology of organised crime who use cryptocurrency and encrypted communication platforms as well. So what I'm saying is I think it is unhelpful to have speculation like this out in the public without more information. The two options here are: don't publicly speculate about the sources of this terror or, if you are going to, substantiate it. Because the community is in total fear this morning that perhaps, for example, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps of Iran could be behind this or some other foreign actor. Now, there's no evidence to substantiate that, but that's exactly where the minds of the Jewish community are going to go when claims like this are made but not substantiated.
JAYES: Yes, fair enough. Okay. Well, we'll see if we can get some clarity on that. The prime minister was questioned this morning and you're right, he said he's going to leave it up to the AFP. We're just about to hear from Chris Minns, by the way, the New South Wales Premier and there has been a man charged after the attempted arson attack of a synagogue in Newtown. He says there are multiple investigations underway at the moment and we had some pretty strong language from Chris Minns yesterday. He's backing that up with action. Is there any more the New South Wales Premier can do in your view?
PATERSON: Well, Laura, I thought the contrast between the Prime Minister and the Premier at their joint press conference yesterday could not have been clearer, could not have been more stark. I mean, I think Chris Minns was a bit slow to get the seriousness of this after the Sydney Opera House. But to his credit, I think he now realises the serious crisis that we have and he is doing everything he can and conveying through his leadership how seriously he takes this. The Prime Minister is just full of excuses. He's just full of explanations as to why he couldn't have done more, why he's done everything he can. I mean, he even said yesterday that the reason why the National Cabinet hadn't yet been convened is that people were on leave. Well, Peter Dutton called on the Prime Minister to first convene a national cabinet in response to this crisis 14 months ago. So unless the Prime Minister is saying that people have been on leave for the last 14 months, and they couldn't possibly interrupt that long, lengthy period to hold a national cabinet, it's another excuse which doesn't hold water. And what's particularly alarming is the lack of action that came out of national cabinet. The only action that came out of national cabinet is that they're proposing a new database on antisemitism. Well, we've already got databases on antisemitism. The Executive Council of Australian Jewry, for example, keeps and publishes those. And it is not clear to me that that will solve this problem. What we needed out of national cabinet was real action, things like mandatory minimum sentences for terrorism offences to send a very strong signal.
JAYES: That's still a state issue, right?
PATERSON: No, there are federal laws on terrorism. We have proposed that we will put in a mandatory minimum sentence of six years for it. And frankly, I don't understand why the Prime Minister hasn't already agreed to do so.
JAYES: Okay. Let me ask you about Sue Lines. I mean, it seems like she was on some list. She's not now. Penny Wong and Mark Dreyfus going to the commemoration. Is that acceptable to you?
PATERSON: Well, there's a great story by your colleague Cam Reddin yesterday, and it's very clear that the government is being tricky in their explanations about this, and they can't be straight and upfront and true because it would be embarrassing had they known that they had nominated one of the most anti-Israel members of parliament to lead a delegation to the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. Sue Lines, as you have said, has also called Israel an apartheid state. But she's done far more than that. In repeated public comments, she said the Israel lobby controls the foreign policy of Australia and in the Labor Party and that they're too influential. I mean, this is someone who has no business in representing Australia and certainly not at a sensitive thing like this for the Jewish community. And it's there in black and white. It's there as plain as day. She very clearly was leading the delegation at one point. It's likely that the government subsequently realised that was not a good decision based on the backlash and they are scrambling now to say that they had a different plan. But they can't give a straight answer about why she appeared as the head of that delegation.
JAYES: As I say, we are standing by to hear from Chris Minns. Is there anything more you want to hear from him today? Or are you, is the Opposition in lockstep with at least what he has been doing at a state level?
PATERSON: I think there is more that can be done at the state level too. I recognise the work that New South Wales Police is doing. The progress they have made with the arrests this morning is very welcome. But they could also institute some mandatory minimum sentences at the state level as well. And as I understand that the New South Wales Premier has ruled that out. I think that's a mistake. I think these people need to understand there are serious consequences for their behaviour, and I think this will get worse unless we act sooner. And the weakness we’ve particularly seen from the federal government and the Prime Minister and his slowness to act has really emboldened these people. They think they can get away with their conduct, and we have to make sure they don't.
JAYES: Just finally. Before I let you go, James. It is Trump 2.0, and he certainly hit the ground running with a number of executive orders. I want to ask you about two things in particular. This is that he signed an executive order to only recognise two genders and also that the US would pull out of the Paris Agreement. Would the Coalition in this election year follow suit on those two things?
PATERSON: Neither of those are on our agenda or the priorities for us at the moment, Laura and we have a different system of government. There is no such thing as executive orders in the Commonwealth of Australia and Peter Dutton won't have the opportunity to do those things in that way. We would require legislation for those sorts of actions, and we're not proposing that. My focus is on the domestic terrorism crisis in this country, and more broadly, our focus as a Coalition is on the cost of living crisis, which is devastating Australians and which the Prime Minister has no answers for.
JAYES: But part of that cost of living crisis is energy, and this is front and centre with your nuclear plan. Would it be easy to implement your nuclear plan without Paris?
PATERSON: The great thing about emissions-free nuclear technology, Laura, is that it can allow us to make this transition to net zero by 2050 in a way that's sustainable and economically responsible. Because if we go with the Prime Minister's renewables-only plan, we're going to de-industrialise our country. We cannot run a modern full time economy on part time power, but that's what the Prime Minister proposes to do. What we propose to do is use a proven technology used all around the world, including in the United States, that will get emissions down sustainably and affordably.
JAYES: Okay. James, great to see you as always. We'll see you soon.
PATERSON: Thanks, Laura.
ENDS
