February 5, 2025
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TOM CONNELL: Welcome back. The Opposition is pursuing the Prime Minister over when he was briefed over this foiled terror plot in Sydney. Joining the panel now, the Shadow Home Affairs and Cyber Security Minister, James Paterson. Thank you for your time. So, in terms of when he was briefed, Sky News understands, Kieran was reporting that it was after Chris Minns, the New South Wales Premier. But would that be the Prime Minister's fault? He just waits to get a briefing, doesn't he?
JAMES PATERSON: Well, how long after? Maybe Kieran can share with us.
KIERAN GILBERT: It was when it was being made public is when the feds briefed him.
PATERSON: So that would be nine days after, if that's right, the Premier was briefed. I mean, can't you immediately see the problem there that the Prime Minister of Australia doesn't know one of the largest potentially ever thwarted terrorist attacks in our country?
CONNELL: He just gets a brief, or he doesn't. So isn't it up to the police to do so? Isn't that the problem?
PATERSON: Well, this is a failure of the national security architecture on his watch, and he's demolished the national security architecture that was put in place by the previous government, particularly the unified Home Affairs Department that had all those key operational agencies under one roof. I've spoken to many people who served in national security, in the bureaucracy and in government over years. No one thinks that this ever would have happened previously - that a Prime Minister would have been kept in the dark about a mass casualty potential terror attack.
CONNELL: So what changes have Labor made, That would denote that he would not be briefed in this circumstance?
PATERSON: Well, the changes that Labor made to the Home Affairs Department, which is essentially to demolish it in all but name, firstly taking out the AFP, AUSTRAC and the ACIC and then later taking out ASIO as well, has caused mass confusion and dysfunction behind the scenes. You've got departments engaging in turf wars, we have got Ministers arguing about who gets access to which officials. It has caused a mess in national security, and it's left someone like the Counter-Terrorism Coordinator who works in Home Affairs with no interaction or oversight over the AFP or ASIO, even though they are critical counter-terrorism tools.
CONNELL: And even though they told the Premier, not the Prime Minister, how would any of that denote telling a Premier and not a Prime Minister?
PATERSON: Well, New South Wales Police sounds like brief the Prime Minister, brief the Premier sorry. It would be the AFP's job to brief the Prime Minister, and they should really explain, particularly when they appear before the law enforcement committee tomorrow, whether or not they did so when they did so and why.
ANDREW CLENNELL: Alright, If you were Home Affairs Minister and Federal police commissioner knew about this for nine days and didn't tell you, would you sack them?
PATERSON: Well, the Home Affairs Minister doesn't get to sack Federal Police Commissioners. That's a matter for the Prime Minister. But on day one, if I'm the Home Affairs Minister, I will be making clear to all intelligence and law enforcement agencies my expectation that I'd be briefed if any serious incident like this occurs so that I can make a judgement whether the Prime Minister needs to be briefed and he can make a judgement whether we need to call the National Security Committee of Cabinet to make changes in response.
CLENNELL: If Reece Kershaw knew about this for nine days and didn't tell the Prime Minister, Should he still be in his job?
PATERSON: Well, if that is indeed the case, he needs to explain the rationale for why he didn't tell the Prime Minister. But frankly, it's the Prime Minister's responsibility. We have a rolling domestic terror crisis.
CLENNELL: Well, hang on-
PATERSON: No, just let me finish this point because it's really important. NSC should have been meeting on a regular basis to deal with this. And at those meetings, the Prime Minister should have been asking the AFP and ASIO and others for operational updates on what's been happening. What's the latest intelligence? Have there been any recent incidents? He should have been on top of this. He should have been driving this. I don't get the sense of that at all. I think he's been in the back seat. I think he's been a passenger instead of being a leader.
CLENNELL: So you don't necessarily blame Reece Kershaw?
PATERSON: Well, we have to understand, if it is the case, why it's the case that they chose not to brief the Prime Minister.
CLENNELL: Well New South Wales sources certainly told me that the Federal Police knew when Chris Minns knew.
PATERSON: They should have known because it was a joint counter-terrorism team operation that responded to the incident. So they would have known as soon as New South Wales Police did, and if they made a decision not to tell the Prime Minister and, the Home Affairs Minister and the Attorney-General, we have a serious problem.
GILBERT: The understanding is that the protocol used suggests that if it's not an imminent threat or, you know, there are various bars that they're got to jump before they think it's appropriate to then take it to the Prime Minister. Does that make sense to you?
PATERSON: I'd like to see that protocol. If that's the case, I think it should be publicised; if that's the case, I think we should understand what those thresholds are because it's extraordinary to me that you could have a thwarted potential mass casualty event with a 40-metre blast radius, and no one thinks it's appropriate to tell the AG, the Home Affairs Minister or the Prime Minister.
TRUDY MCINTOSH: On a separate matter, can I ask you about U.S. President Donald Trump's contribution today saying he wants to own Gaza, What's your view on that?
PATERSON: Well, our policy hasn't changed. We're longstanding supporters of the two state solution in Israel and Palestine. We believe that's the most durable and sustainable solution. But it's also very clear that the status quo isn't working for either Palestinians or Israelis. And we need to understand more about the president's proposal before we could respond to it substantially.
CLENNELL: Don't you see some danger signs in the U.S. trying to take over a territory like that?
PATERSON: Well, it's not my role to provide public advice to the U.S. President about his foreign policy initiatives. And I would think it's fair to say it's in an embryonic stage, We only learned about it today via this press conference, and we would have to understand more about it before we could comment further.
MCINTOSH: Are you comfortable with the wording the Prime Minister landed on today, which is, I'm not going to provide a running commentary on Donald Trump? How tenable is that, for not only him but your side heading into the campaign?
PATERSON: Well, I think we should be guided by our own national interest and we should make judgements consistent with our own values. And we are a sovereign democracy and we make up our own mind about these things. I'm much more critical of the changes that the Prime Minister's already made to our long-standing bipartisan support for a two-state solution because Labor has actually walked away from that; they now support unilateral recognition of a Palestinian state prior to any peace negotiation between Israel and Palestine. That's an extraordinary departure that's happened over the last two years from that long-standing bipartisan consensus.
GILBERT: A bit more extraordinary, what we're seeing today though, Donald Trump made no reference to any self-determination at any point for the Palestinian people, long-term ownership, U.S. Control of Gaza. It is quite extraordinary what we saw today.
PATERSON: It's certainly a new proposal that we haven't heard before and we don't have enough information about to be certain about exactly what the president intends.
CONNELL: Is it ok to tell your reaction by just sort of showing you Susie Wiles' face. That was seen, we showed early before, we might get it up, but that's probably how most of the rest of the world reacted.
PATERSON: Look, I'm obviously not going to provide commentary on President Trump's staff or their possible reaction or motivations there.
CONNELL: Oh, come on.
MCINTOSH: Smart.
CLENNELL: What was your initial reaction when you saw the news, presumably on Sky?
PATERSON: Of course, always running every day in the background in the office. Look, I wasn't anticipating the proposal.
CLENNELL: Nicely put.
CONNELL: Alright, we will leave it there. James Paterson, thank you.
PATERSON: Thank you.
ENDS
