October 6, 2024
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ANDREW CLENNELL: Okay. Well, joining me live now is the shadow Home Affairs and Cyber Security Minister, James Paterson. James Patterson, thanks for your time. Let me start with what you would like to see occur with the protests in the next couple of days. Should police have gone in harder to stop them occurring altogether, in your view?
JAMES PATERSON: Well, good morning, Andrew. Let's remember what the 7th of October commemorates. Let's remember what this anniversary means to many Australians, including our Jewish community. It is the anniversary of the greatest loss of Jewish life in a single day since the Holocaust. On the 7th of October, Hamas entered Israel. They killed 1,200 people. They captured 250 more and took them hostage back into Gaza. They raped and they mutilated, and they murdered. And on that day, there was no loss of Palestinian life. In fact, the only Palestinians who died that day were Hamas fighters who were killed while they were in Israel. The Israeli military response took a number of days, even weeks before it was marshalled. And so if you're a pro-Palestinian organiser and you're organising a protest on the 7th of October, you cannot be organising it to commemorate the loss of Palestinian life. You can only be organising it to celebrate the loss of Jewish life. So these protest should not go ahead. The Prime Minister and our Premiers should have done much more to stop them from proceeding. And if they do go ahead, I think that's a very bad stain on the Prime Minister's weak record.
CLENNELL: So you would have liked to see more court action? Would you like to see police go in and stop them? What would you like to have seen to prevent them?
PATERSON: Well, to the credit of the New South Wales Government and the New South Wales Police, they at least tried. The Prime Minister hasn't lifted a finger to try and stop these protests from going ahead. And in Victoria the Premier has said we've got no power to do so. Actually, the Shadow Attorney General, Michael O'Brien, has pointed to extensive provisions in the law, including the Unlawful Processions and Assemblies Act of 1958, section ten of which allows the government to prevent gatherings that incite religious or political discord. So there were options available to government, state and federal, if they wanted to stop these from proceeding.
CLENNELL: What was the federal option proceeding? What was the federal option? Are you saying they should have gone to the New South Wales Supreme Court or what have you?
PATERSON: No, I'm not suggesting that the federal government should go to the Supreme Court. I'm suggesting that the Prime Minister should show some leadership. I know that's a lot to expect…
CLENNELL: Well, hang on. But you said the federal government should have done more to stop the protest. So what should they have done?
PATERSON: Yes. Yes, I am. What I'm saying is the Prime Minister should have shown leadership, and I know that would be something surprising and new and different for him on these issues. But he should have made it clear and he should have gone direct to community leaders and used the relationships and the status of the office of Prime Minister that he holds to say this is utterly unacceptable and it must not proceed. We're not saying that you can't protest for the Palestinian cause. We’re just saying pick any other day of the year than 7th of October. Pick any day you like, go your hardest. All we say is don't protest on the anniversary of the greatest loss of Jewish lives since the Holocaust. Please don't bring any terrorist flags with you when you do so. And if at all possible, please don't incite violence against your fellow Jewish Australians.
CLENNELL: Police during the week began to arrest and charge people with showing Hezbollah paraphernalia. Your leader, Peter Dutton, during the week suggested Parliament should be recalled to deal with strengthening legislation around that. Given the arrest, do you think that's necessary still or we should try this legislation out first?
PATERSON: Well, the reason why Peter Dutton made that call and I've made the same is that we've heard nothing but excuses for the last 12 months about why the law couldn't be enforced. Even though the Parliament unanimously passed the prohibited hate symbols legislation in December last year. And frankly, what we saw on Sunday in Melbourne and Sydney was just the worst example of what has been repeated instances of violations of the law. We regularly see symbols of listed terrorist organisations, not just Hezbollah, but also Hamas on the streets of our cities. In fact, there are men and women who wear the al-Qassam Brigades, which is the militant wing of Hamas, which conducted the 7th October attacks, wear their headbands around the streets of Melbourne with absolutely no consequence. We've even seen people openly selling this memorabilia in defiance of the law on the streets of Melbourne.
CLENNELL: You must be happy to finally see some arrests then?
PATERSON: I am very happy to finally see police finally using the laws available to them. But the point that Peter Dutton made is that this should have been happening earlier. This could have happened at any other weekend in the lead up to the last 12 months. And if there are any deficiencies of the law, we should fix it. So there are no more excuses and people feel the consequences of their behaviour. Because if there are no consequences, then extremists get emboldened.
CLENNELL: There was a story during the week about one of the leaders of the protests being an Iranian national, Arashi Rahbari. But my understanding is the Home Affairs Minister, Tony Burke, has asked police to let him know if any of the protesters are visa holders, in which case he could cancel visas and they have no information to that effect so far. Is that fair enough? What more can the government do on that front?
PATERSON: Well, it was Tony Burke who on Sunday night raised the possibility of cancelling people's visas. And of course, we are strongly supportive of cancelling the visas of anyone who is a guest in our country who is inciting religious hatred like this or engaging in supporting terrorist organisations. But I've said all along, Andrew, it's my belief that we are not going to deport our way out of this problem because the sad truth is probably most of the people at these rallies are Australian citizens. Some of them are even born and raised and educated here. And the only way you can fix a problem of home-grown extremism, which I fear we do have, is by enforcing the law. And what should have happened earlier is that the Home Affairs Minister and the Attorney-General, and the Prime Minister, should have made their expectations to police clear that the law be enforced. And their failure to do so has led to an escalation of this extremism being openly displayed on our streets.
CLENNELL: Your former colleague Josh Frydenberg has delivered a stinging critique or is about to on the Albanese government, I think he gives a speech tomorrow, and particularly about Foreign Minister Penny Wong. His criticism appears to be the Government has never really been on Israel's side right from the moment that October 7th began. He's saying that Penny Wong immediately called for restraint and he writes, he's going to say that, quote, 'Since then, she's led pious calls for a cease fire, which in the absence of Hamas's defeat, would only lead them to regroup and in their own words, go again.' What's your view on Mr. Frydenberg's comments there?
PATERSON: Well Josh wrote a very powerful piece in the Weekend Australian, and I think it's very hard to argue with. I mean let's remember on the 7th of October when there were Hamas terrorists still on the loose in Israel, still shooting up kibbutz, still raping women, still kidnapping people, Penny Wong's response was not just to stand in solidarity and support of our friend and an ally, Israel, but it was to give them a moral lecture and tell them after the greatest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust, that they should exercise restraint. And ever since that point, Penny Wong has failed to stand with Israel even when she finally was embarrassed into going to Israel because the shadow Foreign Affairs Minister, Simon Birmingham, went. Finally when she turned up, she couldn't bother to go down to visit any of the sites of the massacres. She didn't visit any of the kibbutz'. She didn't go to the Nova Music festival. That would have been 90 minutes out of her day to go and do that, to show some respect for those hostages and for those who lost their lives and the Australian Jewish community. And she could not even bring herself to do that.
CLENNELL: Why do you think that is?
PATERSON: It is self-evident, Andrew. Penny Wong and the Prime Minister and the Labor Party are far more concerned about the domestic political implications of standing with our friend and ally than they are with standing up for Australia's long standing principles. I mean, they have been utterly jettisoned over the last 12 months. We've abandoned Israel at the UN. We started calling for a premature establishment of a Palestinian state before any peace negotiations or agreement between Israel and Palestinians. That is in violation of our long standing bipartisan policy when it comes to Israel. The only reason why you would abandon all those things is if you're worried about the Greens, if you're worried about the politics of south west Sydney and you're worried about the political implications for Labor.
CLENNELL: I asked Penny Wong this question last week, she said it was a good question. What do you think the end game for the Netanyahu government is here? Can you kill every Hezbollah fighter? Can you get every hostage free? Can you kill every Hamas operative?
PATERSON: Certainly I think the Netanyahu government's objectives are to remove Hamas as a military threat to Israel and Australians would expect that if the same thing had happened to us on the 7th of October, we would want our government to also remove that threat. Certainly their objective is to see all the hostages freed and the bodies of the deceased hostages recovered, who sadly been killed by Hamas in the last 12 months. And in relation to Hezbollah, it is to ensure that the 2006 resolution of the United Nations Security Council 1701, that the territory south of the Litani River is demilitarised again. In the last 12 months, Hezbollah has launched 9000 rockets from southern Lebanon into northern Israel, which has displaced 65,000 Israelis who can never return to their homes until the threat of Hezbollah is removed. And I think any Australian facing the same circumstances would have at least the same expectations as Israeli citizens do of their government.
CLENNELL: Let me ask you about this call by the Opposition leader for the PM to expel the Iranian ambassador, Ahmad Sadeghi, after a tweet where he praised Hassan Nasrallah. Doesn't it make sense to keep a diplomatic presence in Iran, given the situation at the moment? And wouldn't expelling the Ambassador put that at risk?
PATERSON: Well, the Ambassador, this is not his first offence. It's not even the first time he's been called in for a cup of tea at DFAT. But if you seriously think that is going to change his behaviour, then I think you're very naive. The only way we'll get the Ambassador to respect Australians and our law is for the Iranian regime to fear the consequences. And I see the Government's obviously briefed you and others this morning invoking the name of Kylie Moore-Gilbert and others. I think they're unwise to do so. Kylie Moore-Gilbert is an advocate of a much tougher foreign policy approach to Iran. She has called, as the Opposition has also done, for the IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps of Iran, to be listed as a terrorist organisation, which this government has failed to do. Even though our like minded allies and partners, including the United States and Canada, have done so. So, frankly, I think this is another example of weak leadership from the Prime Minister, and he's going to allow the Iranian ambassador to continue to flout the law and Australian customs because he has no stomach for the tough decisions required.
CLENNELL: You recently called for a ban on TikTok in Australia. Peter Dutton has a TikTok account. So how does this marry up?
PATERSON: I've never called for TikTok to be banned in Australia. What I have called for is to Australia to examine what the United States has done, which is to pass legislation which forces the parent company ByteDance to divest TikTok USA. So that the relationship between TikTok and the Chinese Communist Party is severed. That is the only way that TikTok will ever be safe.
CLENNELL: Should Peter Dutton have a TikTok account?
PATERSON: I’ve repeatedly said that it's fine for Australian politicians to be on TikTok as long as they follow the advice provided by our intelligence agencies to mitigate the personal security and espionage threat that that application represents. But personal abstinence from this app is not going to solve the problems. Only legislative action is because there are millions of Australians who use this app and they deserve a safer version of it. Americans are probably about to get a safer version of it. We should have it too.
CLENNELL: Anthony Albanese is going to make Premier Li in Laos this week at ASEAN, I have revealed this morning. What should the PM raised with the Premier briefly?
PATERSON: Well, he should raise the things he's failed to raise in previous bilateral meetings, in particular, the way in which the People's Liberation Army have endangered the lives of Australian Defence Force personnel in our region, not just in the South and East China Seas, but in our own region in the Arafura sea, and elsewhere. This is unacceptable conduct, it is dangerous conduct and it is deliberate conduct on the part of the PLA, who are frankly using the ADF and other militaries in the region as training practice and then putting out propaganda videos, labelling us as the enemy. If the Prime Minister doesn't robustly raise that, then I think it'll be another failure of his leadership.
CLENNELL: James Paterson, thanks for your time.
PATERSON: Thanks Andrew.
ENDS
