March 12, 2024
CHRIS KENNY: Now, US President Joe Biden has sharply criticised the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, over the war in Gaza as hopes of a temporary ceasefire fade. A group of Australian politicians is in Israel at the moment. I caught up with the shadow Home Affairs Minister, James Paterson, in Jerusalem.
JAMES PATERSON: Good evening Chris. Well, people here on the ground in Israel are very pessimistic about the prospects of a ceasefire deal that involves an exchange of hostages, the remaining 134 hostages of them - we don't know how many are still alive - and Palestinian prisoners in exchange for a ceasefire of some nature. They're very pessimistic about that because they frankly doubt with good reason the sincerity of their negotiating partner, which is Hamas. Hamas have no interest in really bringing this war to an end and they have certainly no interest in freeing Israeli hostages that they have, they believe that they are winning a public relations battle against Israel around the world because of the high civilian death toll and drawing attention to that, in a way that damages Israel. So, certainly people are concerned about the way things are. But what we've identified here is across the political spectrum, whether you're a fan of Benjamin Netanyahu or not, there is a really deep seated resolve and determination to remove Hamas as a military threat and as a terrorist threat to the state of Israel and I don't think Israel and anyone in Israel would support stopping until that job is done.
KENNY: Yeah, it's fascinating to hear that because that, jells with everything we've been hearing from people close to the situation in Israel over recent months, that unity of resolve across the political spectrum in Israel, I wonder whether the rest of the world understands this, even world leaders, because President Joe Biden has seemed to be, seems to be intent on attacking the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, you because of the way he's prosecuting the war, effectively trying to call him into in and have a listen to the president here.
[CLIP] He has a right to defend Israel, a right to continue to pursue Hamas. But he must, he must, he must, pay more attention to the innocent lives being lost as a consequence of the actions taken. He's hurting, in my view, he's hurting Israel more than helping Israel by making the rest of the war as contrary to what anyone stands for. And I think it's a big mistake. So I want to see a ceasefire.
KENNY: Yeah, that's quite astonishing criticism of the way Benjamin Netanyahu is prosecuting this war, James.
PATERSON: People here in Israel would love to have the full throated support of their friends and allies around the world, but if they're forced to choose between public criticism and losing a public relations battle and giving up on their military operation and losing that battle, well, I think it's a very clear choice that they would make every day of the week. They'll continue to pursue this mission because if Hamas remains in control of Gaza, even a small Hamas presence in Gaza, and Israel withdraws then it will be only a matter of time before Hamas retains complete control of Gaza, subjugates again the people of Gaza as their victims, and uses Gaza as a base to launch future attacks on Israel - something that Hamas's leadership has been openly and very clearly public about. And so Israel believes that of the 22 brigades at the start of the war, that may be only 4 to 6 brigades left in Rafah. And they believe that a military operation is necessary both to remove that Hamas presence, but also to free those 134 hostages. And I'm sure that would much prefer not to have that public criticism from President Biden or anyone else. But no one here has forgotten the events of 7th October, and no one here is going to allow it to be repeated.
KENNY: Yeah, indeed. Now the thing is about more military action in Rafah. This is one of the so-called red lines that Joe Biden has outlined, and Benjamin Netanyahu has responded in this way.
[CLIP] I don't know exactly what the president meant, but if he meant by that, that I'm pursuing private policies against the majority, the wish of the majority of Israelis, and that this is hurting the interests of Israel. And he wrong on both counts.
KENNY: Benjamin Netanyahu there, hitting back at Joe Biden very strongly. But to what extent Israelis need the support of the U.S. and the overt support of the president.
PATERSON: Well, the United States is a very important partner to Israel. They are, of course, one of the suppliers of the munitions that supply the Iron Dome. And as President Biden itself is very clearly said, there's no way the United States is ever going to cut off the ability of Israel to defend itself from rocket attacks, particularly not when in northern Israel, beneath the southern border Lebanon, there are hundreds of thousands of rockets controlled by Hezbollah, pointing at the communities of northern Israel, and some of which have the range to go well below Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and put the entire civilian population of Israel at risk. So I think everyone understands in the United States and Israel that that fundamental support of the United States to Israel's defence is not going to waver in any way, shape or form, even if there are disagreements about the ways the operations in the Gaza Strip are being conducted right now.
KENNY: Now, James, you're in Israel with other Australian politicians. That's the only way you can get a real sense for what's transpiring in a military, in a practical and a social sense. Just how important is it for Australia to make sure that our Prime Minister or our foreign minister visit Israel in this hour of its greatest need?
PATERSON: Chris, before I came here I had seen that full 47 minute unedited video provided by the Israeli government of what happened on the 7th of October. I'd read widely about it. I'd talked to members of the Australian Jewish community and others about it, and I thought I had a good understanding of what happened on 7th October and what that impact was on the Jewish community and on the people of Israel. But I can tell you I was wrong. Because yesterday I visited Kibbutz Berri, yesterday with my colleagues, I visited the site of the Nova music festival. And I assure you, you cannot understand what happened on the 7th of October until you see it yourself. The full horror of seeing what happened there just by walking around the site, let alone knowing what happened there is something that has profoundly affected me and changed my perspective on this and understood why Israelis are so determined never to permit that to happen ever again. And I think it is a great stain on this government that the Prime Minister has not joined other world leaders and even bothered to come here at all. And it reflects incredibly poorly on our Foreign Minister that she came all the way here, flying for nearly 24 hours to get here and didn't bother to spend the extra hour to go south to view the sites of those atrocities by Hamas on the 7th of October. It wouldn't have been a big change to her program once she was here to do it. She made a choice, a conscious choice, not to go here. She can't, therefore, appreciate exactly what happened here. And I think that reflects terribly on her and the government.
KENNY: James Paterson, thanks so much for joining us.
PATERSON: Thanks, Chris.
ENDS
