March 11, 2023
JAYNE AZZOPARDI: Here to discuss, we are joined by Liberal Senator James Paterson from Melbourne. And in the studio, we have TikTok talent manager Alex Reid and TikTok star Maddy MacRae. Welcome to you all. Senator, we are going to start with you because you are running a committee that is looking into foreign interference through social media. Why do you think TikTok is considered a national security risk?
JAMES PATERSON: There are two main challenges with TikTok. The first is what it does with our data, and the second is the way it controls the flow of information when it comes to our data. We know, because TikTok admitted to me in a letter in July last year, that Australian user data is accessible in mainland China. That's a problem because Chinese people and companies are required under its national security laws to assist its intelligence agencies and to keep that assistance secret. So, they could be handing over data on Australians to the Chinese government without us ever knowing.
The second issue is on that flow of information. TikTok's algorithm is not transparent. We would have no way of knowing whether TikTok tried to push disinformation into
our political system to undermine our social cohesion and influence our political system, and there's good reasons to believe that they would do both. In the case of disinformation, it is a platform which is very permissive and friendly for disinformation. Foreign state-backed disinformation is rife on the platform and in relation to data.
TikTok last year in December had to admit that they had allowed their employees to secretly spy on journalists who are writing critical articles about TikTok, and they initially lied about it. They said it wasn't technically possible, but subsequently ended up firing four employees who were involved in that surveillance.
CLINT STANAWAY: So, James, it's worth making the point that there are so many other social media platforms operating right now that are storing data in other countries too. A lot of people might say that you're picking on TikTok. Why are you worried about it?
PATERSON: You're absolutely right. All social media companies pose a degree of risk, but most of those social media companies are headquartered in liberal democracies, governed by the rule of law like the United States. Australia and the United States have a very different relationship to the relationship that Australia has with China at the moment. China is our number one source of cybersecurity attacks. China is our number one source of foreign interference. The Chinese government has been openly trying to economically coerce Australia. So, to give the Chinese government a powerful vector to influence our democracy and our society through millions of TikTok users is a much more dangerous thing than Facebook or Twitter or Instagram trying to sell us holidays or golf clubs.
AZZOPARDI: All right, Alex, let's go to you now because you represent about 40 Australian TikTokers who are making a pretty decent living from the platform. How do you feel about these calls for it to be banned?
ALEX REID: I understand that Australians are concerned about how their data is being used online, but what I think is really unhelpful is this kind of discourse that targets TikTok simply because it's a Chinese company. Every social media platform has to use your personal data in order to perform. And I think this misinformation and this conspiracy theory about what the Chinese government may or may not do with that data is not helpful. I think the politicians need to work on legislation that can help protect the Australian people, make them feel comfortable online, because banning TikTok will do nothing. Tomorrow there'll be another app. So let's work on legislation that is a world first and leads the world in how people's because data is looked after.
STANAWAY: Maddy, let's bring you in because you're a TikToker, a TikTok star. How many followers do you have?
MADDY MACRAE: 1.5 million.
STANAWAY: That's quite a few. Are you worried? Or cautious, are you cautious?
MACRAE: Well, I feel like, it's my whole career. I've built a career on being on TikTok, and yes, I'm on the other platforms. But most creators in Australia find that their biggest platform is TikTok, and I would say 80 per cent of my income comes from this app alone. So, if it is banned, I lose my livelihood and I'd have to seek income elsewhere. And there's tens of thousands of creatives who are on the app who are alive and well and doing really well in the app. So, it would really impact us.
AZZOPARDI: For people who aren't TikTokers, what do you love about it?
MACRAE: It's a creative outlet that's on my own terms. It's a great community. Everyone's really lovely on the app and we really build up our content around the people who are watching, so it's a really great way to connect with people.
STANAWAY: James, quickly to you, should it be banned? Do you sit here today and say, I want to ban this thing?
PATERSON: It should absolutely be taken off all government devices as the United States, Canada, the European Union and many other countries have done. All of those countries recognised the serious national security threat it poses to government users. So that should have happened some time ago.
Look, I think we should keep all options on the table on protecting the other millions of Australians who use the app. If we can solve this problem through means less severe than banning it, then I'm very open to that. But I think we have to keep that option on the table because unfortunately, TikTok is a company that hasn't told the truth in the past around the way it operates. It collects much more data on its users than most other apps, including their physical location, including the other apps stored on their phone, including the Wi-Fi locations that you've logged in. It even has the power to record every keystroke that you enter into its in-app browser. And unlike many other apps, it doesn't allow you to leave the application to use other browsers that don't engage in that kind of tracking. This is a very dangerous app. It could impact the privacy and safety of millions of Australians and we have to address it.
AZZOPARDI: Okay, well, let's hope we do something, and for people like you, Maddy, keep it around. Thank you all for your time.
ENDS
