April 24, 2025
Transcript – ABC Radio Canberra Drive
23 April 2025
E&OE
JAMES FINDLAY:
Well, the Coalition has pledged to spend an extra $21 billion between now and 2030 to reach its goal of lifting overall military spending. It would see the overall increase of defence spending to 2.5% of GDP over the next five years and up to 3% in ten years. The current level is just over 2%, so 2.04%, I believe. Labor has proposed increasing defence spend as well to 2.3% in the next eight years. Senator James Paterson is the Shadow Home Affairs Minister and the Liberal Campaign Spokesperson. Good afternoon to you, Senator.
JAMES PATERSON:
Good to be with you.
JAMES FINDLAY:
You, too. How have you landed on this number?
JAMES PATERSON:
Well, we followed the advice of experts who've looked at this problem very carefully, particularly people like Sir Angus Houston, who completed the defence strategic review for the Albanese Labor Government. He has said that 3% of GDP is what will be necessary to meet the challenge of the strategic environment which we're in, which the Prime Minister and everyone else agrees is the most dire Australia has found ourselves in since the end of World War II. But right now, we don't have the investment required to give us the capability we need to protect ourselves in that environment.
JAMES FINDLAY:
I want to get to the environment in a moment, but I think what's on a lot of people's minds at the moment is how are you going to pay for this. I know the opposition leader today has said that you'd be paying for it by reversing Labor's tax cuts, but that won't cover it all. It's only about seven billion. So where's the money coming from?
JAMES PATERSON:
Well, I think, actually, Labor's tax cuts are about $17 billion, but we'll outline our costings in the normal way.
JAMES FINDLAY:
Still not all of it, to cover it though.
JAMES PATERSON:
That's right, and we'll outline our costings in the normal way and in the normal time of the campaign, which will set that out. But the principle here is that we must pay for the things that we need to pay for, like our national security and defence needs, and we will find the way to pay for that by the usual way we do so with careful, prudent budget management, which is cutting out waste, being efficient, and making sure we're spending money on the things we have to rather than things that other people might like us to.
JAMES FINDLAY:
Hmm, okay. So this is the thing, Senator, people are already voting. Um, shouldn't people, if they have the opportunity to go to the polls, know what they're voting for?
JAMES PATERSON:
Well obviously anyone who's decided to vote early at pre-poll has decided they have enough information to make up their minds and vote, otherwise they might choose to wait if they're seeking more information. And a lot of people who are voting earlier are people who are pretty clear in their world view and choose to vote earlier. But as the Labor party did in the last campaign, we will be releasing our costings towards the end of the campaign once all of our policies have been released.
JAMES FINDLAY:
So we're expecting by the end of next week?
JAMES PATERSON:
We haven't chosen the specific date or time, but we will be waiting, of course, for the government to release their costings first because they have access to the Departments of Treasury and Finance which help them prepare their costings and some of the things which they have promised, we need to consider, and decide whether or not we're going to match, and then we'll release our costings after that.
JAMES FINDLAY:
Look, we're hearing this, and no doubt you're hearing this as well, Senator, that people are doing it tough. They're struggling to make ends meet, and you're coming out planning on spending an extra $21 billion on defence and the military. How do you justify that to people who are trying to make ends meet?
JAMES PATERSON:
Well, you're right, there are a lot of Australians who are really struggling right now because the last three years have been pretty tough. Grocery prices are up 30%, electricity prices are up 32%, gas prices are up 34%, and we have a plan to deal with that problem for Australians. Firstly, by providing them with immediate relief in the form of a petrol and diesel tax cut of 25 cents a litre. Secondly, in the form of a rebate on their tax, the next financial year, 85% of taxpayers will receive up to $1,200. And then over the medium and longer term, getting our energy system back under control.
JAMES FINDLAY:
Sorry to interrupt, Senator, but this is still a really big amount to spend on something that people might argue is not going to help them day to day.
JAMES PATERSON:
Well, I think future generations would judge this generation very harshly if we didn't spend adequately on our defence and national security, and we found ourselves in a moment of crisis. Look at what is happening in Europe right now. If you had told anyone five or 10 years ago that Europe would be engaged in the largest land war since the end of World War II, they wouldn't have believed you. But European leaders and their public, today, say they regret under-investing in their defence because they weren't ready and they didn't have the capability they needed to resist Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which threatens all their security. Now I hope that we never face that dilemma in our own region, but I want to make sure, if that does happen, that we're prepared to meet it with adequate capability.
JAMES FINDLAY:
We're very far away from Europe and Russia, though. Are you expecting something like that to happen here?
JAMES PATERSON:
Well, people like Sir Angus Houston warn us that this is the most dangerous time since the end of World War II for Australia. And the reason why that's the case is that China is engaged in the world's largest military buildup since the End of World War II. No country in peacetime has acquired military capability as rapidly as they are doing. And most countries don't do that just for the fun of it. They do that for a purpose. Now, I'm someone who's optimistic. I think we can ensure there is no conflict in our region. We can prevent conflict in that region. But to do that, we need to have a credible deterrent along with our allies. And if we under-invest in defence, we're actually increasing the risk of conflict, because people might think that we are a pushover, they might think we are easy, and in fact, we need to demonstrate that we're strong.
JAMES FINDLAY:
Senator James Paterson is with you. He's the Shadow Home Affairs Minister and Liberal Campaign Spokesperson here on 666 ABC Radio Canberra. I'm James Findlay, and we are hearing about the Coalition's plans to spend $21 billion over the next few years on defence. They released their defence spending plan today. Senator, what exactly do you plan on spending this money on? Because I'm finding it hard to find all the details on that.
JAMES PATERSON:
We've outlined a couple of specific things already. So, for example, we'll restore the fourth squadron of Joint Strike Fighters, the F-35 fighters, that this government cancelled to take it back up to about 100 fighters, which is what we think we need. It's a regionally superior air capability that we need to help deter and hopefully prevent conflict. That's one example. Other areas where we're likely to be spending this money are things like, on missiles, particularly guided missiles, on lethal drones, and on upgrading our bases and facilities around the country, particularly to make sure that they're ready for AUKUS. For example, the HMAS Stirling base in Western Australia needs to be ready by 2027 to receive US Virginia-class submarines on a rotational basis. If we fail at that first hurdle, if we're not ready for that, then the AUKUS project is jeopardised, and we can't afford to fail.
JAMES FINDLAY:
How much of the money that's allocated to this is for those projects, though?
JAMES PATERSON:
Look, it's very difficult from opposition to allocate exact dollars and cents in the defence portfolio, and it's also not actually appropriate because you've got to go through a proper procurement process and get the advice of defence officials. So, we're not going to be signing contracts from opposition with particular weapons manufacturers. That's not the right way to approach this. But we have set a very clear agenda, which is, we need to restore capability now. We can't wait for AUKUS capability in the future. That's important, and we should pursue that. We also need capability right now. And one of the unfortunate things that's happened in the last three years is capability that would have arrived in the next few years, like infantry fighting vehicles and howitzers, have been cancelled by this government, jeopardising our current security.
JAMES FINDLAY:
I want to pick up on something that you said earlier, Senator, about how you're planning on paying for this. One of the things that you've said was waste and cuts to government spending. So I've got to ask you about the Australian public service cuts. I know it's not what you came here for, but you brought it up, so I'll go along with it. Throughout the campaign, you and Coalition counterparts have been saying that the cuts would come from natural attrition and a hiring freeze, and then on RN Breakfast the other week, you mentioned voluntary redundancies as well would be considered too. That was the first time we'd heard that. So what exactly is the policy here? Because we have a lot of APS workers here in the territory, and really would like some clarity on that.
JAMES PATERSON:
Sure, very happy to discuss it, and I think we have been clear about this from the start.
JAMES FINDLAY:
Well, I want to pick you up on that because voluntary redundancies haven't been mentioned a lot. It was always natural attrition and a hiring freeze were the two main points that were brought up a lot.
JAMES PATERSON:
Well, James, if you give me the opportunity, I will explain how it has been consistent. What we've been saying from the very start is that we don't think Australian taxpayers have got good value from the increase in 41,000 new public servants on this government's watch. That's many times more than the Rudd and Gillard governments did in their first six years. What we said from the start is we'll put in place a hiring freeze, and we believe that through natural attrition, we will achieve the vast majority, if not all, of those reductions back to the level it was at the start of this government term. But we've always ruled out forced redundancies, we've said there'll be no forced redundancy, but we never ruled out voluntary redundancies. And that's actually something that you would know happens in the federal public service all the time, happens in state public service, happens in the private sector all the time. It is not a particularly unusual tool for managing workforce size in any enterprise.
JAMES FINDLAY:
Okay, so absolutely on the table?
JAMES PATERSON:
Yes, we have always said that we would never have any forced redundancies. We've always left open the option, if necessary, that we will use voluntary redundancies, although we do believe, given the very high rates of natural attrition, that we can achieve our target over a period of five years of getting down those 41,000 through natural attrition primarily.
JAMES FINDLAY:
I also wouldn't mind some clarity over frontline workers, because you've said frontline workers in the Australian Public Service would not be affected. Who exactly falls into that category?
JAMES PATERSON:
Well, people who are involved in direct service delivery to Australians, people who are processing visas, people who are processing pensions, people who are processing veterans' affairs claims. Those are the kind of frontline service roles, Border Force officers, AFP officers, that are involved in the direct delivery of services to Australians, we have said will be quarantined. We've also said we will quarantine the ADF and national security roles.
JAMES FINDLAY:
Okay, so anyone that's helping the Australian public in those roles, whether it's someone in the back rooms or on the phones.
JAMES PATERSON:
Direct service provision of any kind will be quarantined.
JAMES FINDLAY:
Senator, I really appreciate your time this afternoon. I know we've had a few requests to get you. So I really, appreciate you making the time this afternoon.
JAMES PATERSON:
Glad I could join you. Thanks, James.
ENDS