August 15, 2024
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Opposition Leader Peter Dutton has argued Palestinians fleeing Gaza should not be granted entry to Australia, citing national security fears. It follows comments from ASIO chief Mike Burgess, who said his agency did conduct security checks on some entrants, but that rhetorical support for Hamas was not grounds for immediate disqualification. Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has accused Peter Dutton of stoking division. Shadow Home Affairs Minister James Paterson is our guest this morning. Welcome to the program.
JAMES PATERSON: Good morning Patricia.
KARVELAS: Should Palestinians fleeing a war zone not be granted entry into Australia as a blanket rule?
PATERSON: For the moment, until the Albanese government can convince us and the Australian people that the security and identity checks that they're doing are sufficiently thorough and robust to protect the Australian people, because although there is a very serious humanitarian need here, and although Australia does have an important role to play here, our first and most important duty is to the safety and security of the Australian people. And we must satisfy ourselves that that is not being jeopardized first.
KARVELAS: I must pick you up on the language, for the moment. What do you need to be satisfied that people from that region deserve at least to apply for visas?
PATERSON: Well, a couple of things. Firstly, the government needs to reassure us that they won't accept any Hamas supporters into Australia on these visas. We are several days now into this debate, and they still have not clearly said whether they will or whether they won't accept someone who is a supporter of Hamas into our country. Secondly, they need to ensure that every application is being referred ASIO, not just some applications, as Mike, Mike Burgess said on the weekend. And thirdly, we want to see the kind of robust in-person interviews and biometric tests that occurred for the Syrian cohort that we proudly brought in, for the Afghan cohort and other cohorts like it.
KARVELAS: Do you believe Australia should have a non-discriminatory visa process?
PATERSON: Absolutely.
KARVELAS: Do you say that this statement sounds very much like discrimination?
PATERSON: No, I don't agree at all.
KARVELAS: But it's specific a blanket ban on Gazans. That's discrimination against a group.
PATERSON: We have a non-discriminatory immigration system in this country, and we would maintain it if we were elected to government to on the basis of race, religion or any other characteristic. We've called for a temporary pause until appropriate security checks and vetting can be put in place to assure us that the genuinely deserving and innocent Palestinians who could come to this country and make a good contribution and jeopardise no-ones security are welcome, and that those who do pose a risk are excluded and prevented from coming.
KARVELAS: I'm hoping to speak a little later on the show to a Palestinian neurosurgeon whose family fled Gaza and has said her newly arrived community has come here seeking help, that they don't support Hamas. She's a neurosurgeon, Doctor Mona Kaskeen. Should she be here?
PATERSON: I'm sure, as I said before, that there are many deserving and innocent Palestinians who have a good contribution to make to our country and pose no threat at all. But there was also very widely published opinion polling from Gaza and the West Bank, which shows support for Hamas and what they did on the 7th of October, conservatively, at 40% of the community and up to 70% of the community in some polls. The whole purpose of doing security checks is to weed out the undeserving and let in the deserving, and that's why everyone agrees we have to have it, and that's why it needs to be robust to make sure that we're making those right choices.
KARVELAS: How long is a temporary pause?
PATERSON: Well, as soon as the Albanese government can assure us that they're taking the steps that I outlined before, I think migration from this area can resume, although the government has noted no one is leaving Gaza at the moment because the Rafah crossing is closed.
KARVELAS: Well that is absolutely a technical truth, isn't it, that there are no new applications, but there are people here. Are you suggesting they should be sent home?
PATERSON: Well, anybody who breaches the character provisions of the Migration Act, wherever they come from, should be sent home. And in my view, supporting a listed terrorist organisation is very clearly breaching the character provisions of the Migration Act. So if there is any evidence that people already here have done that, then their visas should be cancelled and they should be sent home. The others who are here should be placed on temporary protection visas so they can have a safe haven in Australia for as long as they need, but so they can return to their country of origin when it is safe to do so.
KARVELAS: Mike Burgess is the head of ASIO. He said rhetorical support for Hamas was not grounds for immediate disqualification. Do you see a distinction between rhetorical support and obviously being a genuine risk to the community?
PATERSON: Mike Burgess is an outstanding Director-General of ASIO and he and his people do incredible work protecting our community. And what he was doing is describing the current arrangements under this government. I don't agree that that is a good process or system to have in place. I don't understand how you can be a peaceful supporter of a terrorist organisation. By definition, a listed terrorist organisation like Hamas seeks to achieve its political objectives through violent means. And if you support that, then you yourself are supporting terrorism. That's very different from being a peaceful supporter of Palestinian self-determination as a cause, which is a perfectly respectable cause and can be done completely peacefully.
KARVELAS: The Prime Minister makes the point. The Coalition's position is in contrast to your past acceptance of refugees from conflicts in Afghanistan and Syria. What's the difference now?
PATERSON: There's a big difference. And frankly, I think the Prime Minister has misled the Parliament yesterday when he said that they were doing exactly what we did in Syria and Afghanistan. The differences is we interviewed people in person when it was safe to do so in-country, or when it was not safe to do so, in a third country. And we did biometric testing before anyone was granted a visa and allowed into our country. That is not happening in Gaza because it can't happen in Gaza. No Australian official is on the ground, and you were not able to leave Gaza until you had a visa granted. So these tourist visas, which were granted in as little as 24 hours on average, and in some instances as quickly as one hour, were done sight unseen, without an in person interview, without biometric testing.
KARVELAS: You've changed the debate, though. Yesterday, Peter Dutton made a statement which was at odds with previous statements. Did that go to your Shadow Cabinet? Were you consulted about that shift?
PATERSON: Well, neither my earlier criticism, nor Peter's, you know, increased criticism went to Shadow Cabinet because that's not how Shadow Cabinet works. In addition to being the responsible Shadow Minister, I'm also the Shadow Cabinet Secretary. And the only things that go on the agenda of the Shadow Cabinet are legislation brought forward by the government to determine our position…
KARVELAS: So it's reasonable for this to be a captain's call?
PATERSON: It's not a captain's call. It's a demand made of the government in opposition. It's not a new policy. It's not legislation. It's completely consistent with how oppositions have always focused. The only people concerned about this are the Labor Party and the media. No one in the Coalition party room is concerned about this.
KARVELAS: Senator James Paterson, we're out of time. Thanks for joining me.
PATERSON: Thanks Patricia.
ENDS
