September 11, 2023
SHARRI MARKSON: Welcome back. Well, British police have arrested a parliamentary staffer over allegations that he's a Chinese spy. Joining me now is Shadow Home Affairs Minister James Paterson. James, this news just breaking on the weekend. Do you think there's any risk that something like this could happen in Australia? Do we need to review our security arrangements for staffers here?
JAMES PATERSON: Unfortunately Sharri, yes, I think it is a very real risk that exactly the same thing could happen here because we have exactly the same vulnerability, which is that the vast majority of staff who work for parliamentarians do not receive security vetting or undergo security clearances before they work in this building. You only need one if you work for a minister. But if you work for a government backbencher or if you're in the opposition or on the crossbench, there is no need, in fact no requirement or ability for your staff to be cleared. And that includes MPs who are members of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security and who soon will be members of a new statutory committee on defence, which is going to oversee the implementation of AUKUS. These are extremely attractive targets to foreign intelligence services. They will be trying to place people in our offices or close to MPs who can potentially get access to that information. And security vetting is one thing we can do to reduce but not eliminate that risk.
MARKSON: We've already seen that there have been things like this happen in New South Wales Parliament, but there were federal investigations that uncovered the ties to the Chinese Communist Party. We haven't seen any similar investigations in Federal Parliament. Do you think that already, you know, people who do have access to sensitive data but aren't working for ministers should already be subject to, you know, background checks and other security assessments.
PATERSON: I don't want to publicly speculate whether or not a foreign intelligence agency has been successful in this, but we absolutely know it is their ambition. Mark Burgess, the director general of ASIO, assesses that foreign interference and espionage is our number one security risk. And if you can't compromise an MP, the next thing you're going to try and do is compromise someone close to them. And the staff are a primary point of contact for that because they have a lot of information about us. And one of the myths in this debate is that the only thing is of interest to foreign intelligence agencies is classified information. Actually, there's a lot of information in politics which is not classified, but is also not public and is highly sensitive, like the views of the members of parliament, their plans to work on these issues, their attitudes and their relationships with their colleagues. All of that is highly attractive to a foreign intelligence agency and is a collection requirement for them, and they will get it by any means they can. And if placing someone in an MP's office is a means of doing it, they will not hesitate to do so.
MARKSON: Now, we learned today that Sky News has sent legal letters to RMIT Fact lab demanding the retraction of false fact checking verdicts on our online content. You've been involved. You've written letters as well to meta, owners of Facebook. What have they responded to you?
PATERSON: I really welcome this action by Sky News today because Meta and RMIT's explanations so far have frankly failed to stack up. Fact checks on the voice referendum have been clearly biased. They should not be allowed to censor Australians point of view, and I look forward to Meta and RMIT actually permitting Australians to say and to access whatever information they want about the referendum to change our constitution.
MARKSON: Alright, James Paterson, brilliant news that you've been standing up for this issue because it is so important. Thank you very much for your time.
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