February 9, 2023
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ANDY PARK: James Paterson is a Liberal Senator from Victoria, he's also the Shadow Minister for Cyber Security. Welcome to you, Senator.
JAMES PATERSON: Thanks, Andy.
PARK: You've also raised a series of concerns today about the more than 900 Chinese made security cameras currently installed in Commonwealth departments. We will come to that just shortly. But dealing with the news today of Alan Tudge resigning from Parliament after more than a decade, there was speculation this would happen prior to the last election. Why now?
PATERSON: Well, Alan outlined in a very emotional speech to the Parliament which I attended, that it was the right thing for his personal health and for his family at this stage. He mentioned that his father died over January and that he'd already been thinking about his future, and that really cemented the direction he was already heading in. He's given excellent service to the people of Aston for almost 12 years and as a Cabinet member in previous governments and I'm sorry to lose him from the Parliament.
PARK: You'd have to admit, though, his departure does effectively kind of turn the page on Robodebt. Was he pushed?
PATERSON: No, I don't think that's the case at all. He said that he talked to Peter Dutton about his future in January, well before he appeared before the royal commission, and he'd given a very long service in the Parliament at the highest levels. And it's perfectly understandable, particularly after there's a change of government in a first term of Opposition. Many former Ministers consider their future and whether or not they're willing to serve through the long, hard years of Opposition. And he's also had some very significant personal circumstances. He talked about the death threats that his teenage daughters have received, and he wants to go and be the best father he can be to them.
PARK: The ABC understands Josh Frydenberg won't stand. Have you spoken to your former colleague about his intentions? Would you like to see him back in Canberra?
PATERSON: I haven't spoken to Josh Frydenberg today, but I've spoken often with him about how it would be great to have him back in the federal parliament and I think he is the Liberal Party's best chance of retaining the seat of Kooyong at the next election. And, of course, Josh's future is a matter for him and he'll have to make his own decision in due course. But there's no doubt he'd have a lot of value to add here in Canberra.
PARK: Let's move to this audit which revealed more than 900 pieces of surveillance equipment made by Chinese government affiliated companies are in Australian government buildings. Defence says it doesn't know how many pieces of the relevant technology are in its buildings. I mean, what evidence is there to suggest this technology could be accessed by the Chinese government? I mean, in short, is this a bit of a beat up?
PATERSON: Well, our closest security partners, the United States and the United Kingdom, think it's of sufficient seriousness that they have effectively banned it from their government sites. And in response to questions on notice, I lodged to divulge this information, a number of government departments and agencies included among them, security agencies like the Department of Defence, but also non-security agencies like the National Disability Insurance Agency said that they had these cameras, but that they were in the process of removing them and replacing them. In the past, Hikvision has had vulnerabilities which have allowed third parties, hackers, for example, to take over their devices, take control of their devices, and listen to the audio collected by them and watch the video collected by them. But, of course, the most important thing is that Hikvision and Dahua, the other company, are beholden to the Chinese Communist Party. They are very closely linked to the party. They are subject to the Intelligence law of China of 2017, which requires them to secretly cooperate with China's intelligence agencies if required. That means that we cannot be sure that the data that they collect won't be passed ultimately to China's intelligence agencies.
PARK: If you just tuned in, Senator James Paterson is here. We're talking about concerns over Chinese made security cameras in government buildings so serious the Australian government is now pursuing the removal of about 900 pieces of surveillance equipment. It's
5:12. Defence Minister Richard Marles says any Hikvision or Dahua equipment will be ripped out. Just take a listen to what he said today:
MARLES: This is not a political issue. I mean the cameras pre-date the last election, but it is right to be focussed on it. We do need to be thinking about the security of our defence estate and so we're going through the process and, you know, in a sober, calm way. We're going to remove what cameras exist.
PARK: Senator, I'd note that you were calling for this sort of audit for some time. Is that not an appropriate response now or is it too late?
PATERSON: Look, I certainly welcome the response by the Defence Minister and that's exactly how I would hope the Australian government would respond when this information is brought to their attention...
PARK: But you brought it to their attention many, many months ago?
PATERSON: That's true. I first asked the Department of Home Affairs about this in September, and they told me that they had a couple of cameras on their sites, but they also told me that they weren't able to say whether or not any other government departments had them. There didn't seem to be any central repository of that information, and I was very concerned by that. That's why I launched my own audit by putting questions on notice to every government department and agency. And it's taken six months, but we now have those results. So, look, I don't seek to make this a partisan issue. This is an issue in the national security interest of our country. I'm pleased the Defence Minister has said that he'll be removing them from his department, but I also would like to see a firm commitment, a clear commitment from the Government to remove them from all other departments and agencies as well.
PARK: If there are back doors to cameras, there could be backdoors to all kinds of equipment. I mean, not to get into conspiracy theories here, but I mean, what about Chinese made furniture in government buildings?
PATERSON: Look, the particular sensitivity is on Internet connected devices, technology devices. I'm not too worried about chairs and tables. I am worried about sophisticated software based, Internet based technologies. And the truth is, yes, all Chinese technology companies do pose a degree of risk because they are beholden to the Chinese Communist Party and they must serve its interests and comply with that intelligence law. And so particularly for departments and government agencies that store sensitive and private and confidential information, they do need to be very cautious before installing any technology provided by those companies.
PARK: Does this effectively demonstrate the argument for Australia to build sovereign capacity to build this kind of technology at a competitive price and standard?
PATERSON: Well, we either need to be able to produce it ourselves or obtain it from our allies and like-minded partners. Now, I don't believe that Australia should try and do everything. We should do what we are best at and we should specialise in that area and we should sell it to the world. But we need to have trusted trading partners and suppliers around the world that we can rely on. And if there isn't anyone else there in the world who can do this, then absolutely we're going to need to look at how we do it ourselves.
PARK: Because the question really is why not support the government's National Reconstruction Fund? I mean a co-invest scheme aimed at promoting domestic manufacturing. We've got a lot of smart people in this country, a lot of agile start-ups. Why not seek to put these kinds of tenders out to the Australian market?
PATERSON: I'm not sure that the Government is contemplating creating a domestic surveillance camera industry. If they are, I'd be interested to hear about their plans for that. And certainly, the previous government invested heavily along with industry to support Australian manufacturing. And the proof of that is that we have a very high manufacturing output in Australia despite the kind of, you know, misleading rhetoric which is sometimes said about that. Australian manufacturers produce outstanding products, but we have to specialise in the areas that we're strongest because we are a small country, a population of only 25-odd million. We can't do everything. We can't go back to probably making washing machines and televisions and fridges. There's other people who specialise in that and do that well. We have to specialise in what we do well and that's what will ensure we're a rich country and a wealthy country that can afford the things that we need.
PARK: Senator, we're out of time. Senator James Paterson is the Shadow Minister for Cyber Security. Thanks for joining me this afternoon.
ENDS
