February 5, 2025
PETER FEGAN: Australian neo-Nazis are thriving on social media, and the insinuation is that it's Elon Musk that's providing them the platform. The world's richest man owns X, formerly known as Twitter. Now, when the platform was known as Twitter, these tweets were banned. But under the new freedom of speech laws, under the Handle X, guess what? They're back online. And well-known neo-Nazis like Thomas Sewell have formed a following. Joining me on the line is the Shadow Home Affairs minister, Senator James Paterson. Senator, a very good morning to you.
JAMES PATERSON: Good to be with you.
FEGAN: Now, it's a huge mistake from Elon Musk to allow these people back on X. But how are we going to hold him to account?
PATERSON: Look, it's not about Elon Musk personally. And it's not even only about X. Unfortunately, these people are active on other social media platforms, including Meta platforms like Instagram and Facebook, although less prominently, and probably most obviously on platforms like Telegram, where they don't just recruit, but they organise and fundraise. So really, this is a question for all platforms to consider whether they want this activity occurring on their platforms. And it's also something for the Australian government to consider. Do we want these people to be engaging in incitement to violence and recruiting people to their cause? I don't think we do, and I think we have to make sure our laws are fit for purpose to deal with that.
FEGAN: Yeah, it's interesting. I said last week, with all these antisemitic attacks, we're now seeing caravans packed with explosive neo-Nazis storming parks in South Australia. Senator, it doesn't feel like the Australia I know. And there was a 16 year old boy arrested as part of those neo-Nazis storming that park in South Australia. But this kid, you could say, Senator, now has a platform to become radicalised. He doesn't need grown ups to do it. He can just go online.
PATERSON: This is a tragic thing. I think a lot of young lives are being harmed when people don't know any better and they are looking for meaning in their life and they fall into crews like this. And we should make that process as hard as possible, not as easy as possible, to divert them from these pathways. And hopefully they grow up and grow out of it and lead normal lives like everyone else. Right now, there's a bill before the parliament to make our federal incitement to violence laws fit for purpose because they're not. You can incite violence against another group in this country, including on the basis of their ethnicity and or religion, and you have a defence that you did so in good faith. Now, I don't think there's any world in which you can, in good faith, incite violence against another group in the community, and we must fix that as soon as possible.
FEGAN: Do you think that Anthony Albanese actually has a grip on antisemitism? Because I find this interesting that the Premier of New South Wales, Chris Minns, kept him in the dark over this caravan full of explosives. Now, I'm not for one moment, Senator, suggesting that the states need to come clean to the Prime Minister on every little issue they have. This is hardly a little issue. But why are we so worried about when he found out?
PATERSON: Well, sadly, I think it's very clear the Prime Minister is not on top of this issue. It's got completely out of control on his watch. And every day, it seems to get worse. It would be very disturbing if he wasn't briefed by the federal police about this. That would be a massive failure of our national security architecture on his watch because the Prime Minister needs to know if there's an attempted mass casualty terrorism event. Had this proceeded, it could have been one of the worst ever terrorist attacks in Australia. And the Prime Minister should have immediately convened the National Security Committee of Cabinet and made a series of policy and operational decisions to surge resources to our intelligence and security agencies and our law enforcement and to reassure the Jewish community and all Australians that we were on top of this and we're doing everything we can to prevent anyone else trying to do it.
FEGAN: Now, shoe on the other foot. I'm assuming that the Prime Minister and I'm not for one moment trying to, I think the Prime Minister should have come clean. I want to be very clear on that. But let's be honest here for just a moment, Senator. Shoe on the other foot, you're Home Affairs Minister, right, in government. And this happened under your watch. And the police tell you, the AFP says to you, look, we're trying to track down who's involved here. We're trying to track down where the explosives came from. Are you then going to go hold a press conference or are you going to wait for the advice of the AFP? Perhaps the Prime Minister here is being told, keep it quiet because there's more to this story. I mean, let's be honest, they didn't want the Daily Telegraph in Sydney to know about it, so perhaps they were on to something bigger, and they don't want the Prime Minister to make any noise about it.
PATERSON: Well, the first thing I will do if I become Minister for Home Affairs is sit down with our police and intelligence agencies…
FEGAN: But would you hold a press conference if they told you not to?
PATERSON: It would depend on the circumstances, it would depend on the facts.
FEGAN: You can see where I'm going with it here. In the defence of the Prime Minister. Perhaps he's been told by, you know, his top defence officials, whatever the case may be. Hey, PM, don't tell people when you knew about this, and let's not hold a press conference because you could criticise Chris Minns here; he didn't come clean because he was told not to. Now I know the New South Wales cops are filthy that Mark Morri and [Josh] Hanrahan got hold of this story. They're filthy.
PATERSON: I hear you, Peter. And we would never do anything to disrupt an active police investigation. And if police said that if you go public on this, it's going to stop us from catching the people behind it, of course, we would never do anything to disrupt that. But I do want to be told, I do want to have the opportunity to brief the Prime Minister if necessary, and I want him to have the opportunity, if it's Peter Dutton, to call the National Security Committee of Cabinet and to make decisions to protect the community. And we can't do that if we're not told. And the Prime Minister has failed to make those expectations clear to the federal police and our intelligence and security agencies.
FEGAN: It's twenty-two and a half after seven. My guest this morning is the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, Senator James Paterson. We're talking about anti the rise of antisemitism here in Australia and also neo-Nazi groups being given a platform now on social media. That's under the Handle X and under the freedom of speech laws that have been put there by billionaire Elon Musk. I find this very interesting, Senator, and I know that you'd like to have your say on this. The government has put a ban on Chinese AI app DeepSeek on public servant devices over data collection fees. Now, you were warning us about this last week. Has the ban come too late?
PATERSON: Look, it's a welcome decision. Of course, I would have liked it to have happened earlier because I am worried in the intervening period that public servants downloaded it onto their computers or their phones and have compromised their data security and privacy in the process. It was immediately clear when this app was released that it had virtually exactly the same data collection policies and practices as TikTok, and TikTok was banned on government devices. So it was unclear to me why this app shouldn't have also been immediately banned on government devices. But we've now got a broader question. There will be new apps like this launching every week. How is the government going to anticipate that and be proactive rather than being reactive and waiting weeks later to do something about it?
FEGAN: Are you on TikTok?
PATERSON: No, I'm not.
FEGAN: No. There is a lot of politicians now that use TikTok, though. Do you think that, okay, we take them off government devices, but also, you know, Peter Dutton is on TikTok, Anthony Albanese is on TikTok. It is a great way to reach voters. Are we setting ourselves up for failure by even appearing on TikTok?
PATERSON: Look, I think it's okay for politicians to be on TikTok as long as they follow the security advice, which is it has to be on an independent device that can't be connected to any network, can't have any other data on it, has to be stored securely. That's the intelligence agencies' advice, and it shows how dangerous these apps can be. But we also have to work on a solution that works for all Australians because millions of Australians use these apps. They deserve to be protected. And I think we need to examine very closely what the United States is doing, which is seeking to get TikTok divested from its parent company, Bytedance. So it no longer has a close relationship with the Chinese government.
FEGAN: Just quickly, what's the feel like in Canberra?
PATERSON: Look, it's a very tense atmosphere in the lead up to an election. I think the government knows they're in trouble. I think they're panicking, and they're desperate, and they're lashing out. And they're going very personal against Peter Dutton because everything else they've tried, including talking about their own agenda, has failed. And I think it's very revealing that our first advertising campaign of the year was a positive ad about Peter Dutton and their first advertising campaign of the year with a negative ad about Peter Dutton. That shows you everything about where we're at.
FEGAN: You make a lot of sense, Senator, great to have you on the line and let's chat well before the election.
PATERSON: Thanks, Peter.
ENDS
